How to hang off the bike
 

One thing I have noticed with a lot of riders that haven't been to the track and gotten a chance to work with control riders or other experienced twisty riders coming into my area is how bad their body position is when they think they are hanging off the bike. While I am not the king of the best body position and have a lot to work on myself, I thought I would try to give some help to those with little to no help out there. By all means feel free to throw in your own input and correct some of my misinformation.

I have seen a lot is people doing the get half a butt off the seat directly straight off the side of a bike. While this is a good start, it is still not getting enough weight off the bike. What you really need to do is square your shoulders, drop your head to the mirror, and rotate your hips to where your inside leg actually goes foward as you move off the bike and your outside leg is holding you to the bike and your outside armpit is over the tank. It isn't so much coming off directly to the side of the bike as rotating foward with the lines of the tank. Getting your head off center is hard and my main area I have been really working on.

Sticking my inside leg forward is what I need to work on. The rest of it I have and do it consistently. Head out toward the mirror outside armpit centered over the tank, half my ass off the seat, arms relaxed and lower arm and upper arm at at a 90 angle.

Rotate around the tank... that was the biggest piece of the puzzle I was missing...

NtS was doing the same thing as you. He was doing much better before his slide though.

Basically, the tank is a pivot point and you "roll" your legs around it. That's why in my track pics you don't see my knee way flailed out anymore. But for newbs, kick that knee way out until you get use to the feel of dragging and you start getting an idea of where your max lean is. A good indicator of max lean is how much chicken strips you have left on your front tire.

It'll feel uncomfortable at first, hanging your knee way out, but it does start to feel better. A big help to extending it out is your foot positioning. I put the base of my ring finger toe directly over the outside of the peg and put my heel against the guard.

With your upper body, keep your shoulders square and try not to weight your inside arm. Your armpit should be directly over the gas cap. People say to "eat" your mirror, but I don't find it comfortable.

These are all good pointers for the basics. They set you up to feel the right feedback from your bike and put the center of gravity in the right spot.

so I'm trying to envision this... your basicly pivoting your hips to where you wanna go? I've gotta long way to go but if I can get it down in mind first... I'll have less bad habits to break when the time comes...

Basically, yeah. And doing all this reading/research is the best thing for you. It's the same thig I did and my first track day I took the school and they pretty much taught me everything I already knew.

yeah... though honestly... I'd rather be riding learning bad techniques... and then fixing them... at least I'd be FUCKING RIDING! :rofl:

The biggest hint when I first started getting serious about riding fast was hanging half my ass off to whichever side I was leaning. This was before the track. Then I had to work on my upper half and feet.

yeah it's gonna be intresting trying to apply all this... I didn't find any decent twisty's in AK till I got back from my last deployment... and they were already snow covered!...

gonna have to hit the on/off ramps in Fargo like crazy :lol:

When you get to the gap I will give you some pointers and follow you for a pass or two to see if I notice anything.

Whoa hold the presses here... you guys rotate your hips so they are at an angle to the bike other than 90 degrees?

I keep my hips square/perpendicular to the bike and my spine parallel with the bike.

Hanging off with your hips at an angle promotes a crossed-up body position and encourages bar pressure.

You rotate around the tank and square your shoulders, not your hips. Apply pressure with your outside foot to the rearset and grip the tank with the inside of your outside leg to support your body. Minimal pressure is put on your arms at all. If you are in a left turn you should be able to remove your left hand all together and touch the ground if you so choose.

In order to keep your body parallel to the bike's centerline (which you should be doing) you need to square both shoulders and hips, no?

The only person who should be rotating their hips and being crossed up is Mick Doohan because he was fast even though his body position was wack.

You aren't really effecting your spine, you are more or less rolling the hips around the tank. This also will get you away from that silly 90 degree from the bike knee look and more of a 45 degree angle where your knee should be. It's hard to explain in words and a lot easier to show in person. You should be all the way back in the seat and when you do this it actually kinda rolls your upper body right where it needs to be for the turn.

Not if you're holding your weight with your inside foot and knees, like you should be doing.

sound good... can't fuck'n wait!

Trip.. you gonna meet up with Ebbs in sept?

yeah I'm riding up with Rae from her place in FL to Trips... a couple days after I meet up with you. i'm trying to get Drewpy to meet me in Eureka Spings, the place I was telling ya about

Yeah that's what I do... but the way you were describing it it sounded like you were keeping your pelvis right against the tank which would twist your hips a shitload. The actual hip rotation is not very much at all... I think we're on the same page.

Although my legs are a lot shorter than yours so I stick them out more to let me know where I am, ya know? Then as I lean more I let the ground push my knee up and my leg goes forward a bit.
You should have weight on both feet, not just the inside... although that is a hotly debated topic.

Weight the inside during turn in... weight both during turn, weight outside post-apex while getting on the gas... least that's what I've heard from some TD instructors.

Cloverleaves FTW!

At least you'll be good at right turns! :lol:

BTW it's just a slight pivot, not a huge, drastic pivot.

Using weight on the outside rearset helps in all kinds of ways, suspension and traction on the rear tire.

How are you going to weight the outside during lean? Unless you're talking about the little bit to keep a bit of force against the tank?

:lol: yeah ya know!

I know what he's talking about... and it's one of those things that pisses me off about my new bike... it's too wide for me to really put any pressure on the outside peg...

Basically you aren't supporting yourself with the outside peg, but allowing some of your weight to be transferred to the outside from the centrifical forces applied to you in the turn... It puts more weight down on the tire instead of laterally like if you just weight the inside peg...

You might already be doing it and not really be noticing...

It's not really about holding yourself up, but applying some force to the rear tire. It helps with traction at exceptionally hard riding that I would only suggest to do on the track and not really a concern for street riding. Because more than likely you are riding hard enough to slide the tires.

fuck it. i'll judge the amount of rash on my lower fairing and frame sliders as a good indicator as to how much farther i have to lean.

This wreck was an epiphany, i thought i'd have body position down, but you really have to have somebody else watching you to know what you're doing. I'm not afraid to get down to the very edge of my tire, but without the right body position its just pointless and you are robbing yourself of speed that you could have otherwise put into the turn. If i had the opportunity to take what trip was telling me and apply it on the track in a controlled environment instead of a road that i wasnt familiar with, i wouldnt be in this situation right now.

needless to say, im healthy, my bikes only moderatly damaged, and i've got track experience to look forward to.

Sitting back in the seat a lil bit and not riding the tank also puts weight on the rear tire. The g-forces from your 400+ pound bike will put weight on your tires, plus your body weight. The big thing is to not weight your arms, which is also one of the hardest things to perfect. If you weight your arms, you're pushing the front end away from you and that's what causes lowsides.

I'm gonna get Zort involved in this, he's been to many schools and has a lot of tips, some I stole from him while he was talking to somebody else about 'em. Not saying you guys are wrong or anything. Maybe I just don't understand or it is something I'm doing but don't realize it. But my outside foot, during a turn is kind of pushing my knee to the side of the tank so there's a bit of pressure on the tank. When done correctly I could take my inside arm off my bar throughout the entire turn comfortably.

My friend Dean and I did over 300 curves yesterday. Half were uphill, half were downhill, half were blind corners, many were tight, and some were fast sweepers. These were the roads I was going to take Drewpy and company on.

My favorite curves are the S-curves. You are fully leaned in one direction then one second later, fully leaned in the other direction. Going into the first curve, you have a second to position your inside foot, position your body, locate the turn point, and look through the turn. Then you have half a second to relax the outside grip, and push on the inside grip. Then as you come out of the curve, you can roll on the throttle, push on the outside grip to get the bike upright, and move back to neutral. Then you have a tenth of a second to start doing all the same things on the opposite side of the bike.

What a workout for the brain and body. And what fun when done smoothly and correctly. When you think you master it uphill, then you do it downhill. Then you toss in some sand, cars coming over the double yellow, and deer jumping onto the road.

hows this sound?

for your outside foot to push your knee to the side of the tank, it would have to push against something...the peg. by pushing against the peg, you are putting weight on it, and therefore it would seem this is something u are doing and dont realize it.

That's what I was thinking, but my weight is being countered by the force against my tank, I don't know, fuck it.

the force against your tank should be more of a squeeze in your thigh and so you feet shouldnt be so much a force on it.

can i just state that everyone is going to have a difference of opinion on this one?

For example, those taller will have to adjust their style and cant ride like shorter people, those wider or stockier people cant ride like wiry people. After learning from my friends (retired racers, current racers, and track junkies), all people have a lil different style, you just have to find a proper style that fits your body type and ride.

I cant tell you guys to do it like I do, because I operate on a "tits to the tank" style. Being rather tiny compared to you guys, and not weighing very much, I have to adjust my style to compensate for this, and learning from female racers, I know if I have my chest on the side of my tank, with my arms relaxed, weighting the outside peg, and my knee directly out, ass off the seat and head down towards my mirror, then I am using the optimal position for me, whereas a heavier guy cant necessarily completely hold himself off the seat with knee out and his chest beside (not on or against, i mean BESIDE the tank, with shoulder at the same heigth as the tank) for any length of time. (think spider monkey)

Take the good points you can use, leave the rest and develop your best riding style for you. Good thread Trip! :dthumb:

I think you might be thinking I'm putting more force than I actually am. I use the peg as a point to create leverage against my tank, making my knee against my tank secure as fuck. I could probably let go of the bars, that's how secure I'm talking about.

Wait a second. When you are riding mountains or canyons, there is no time between curves to rotate hips, weigh your feet, or hug the tank. Here's what Lee Parks recommends in Total Control:

1. Your foot should be tucked in so it doesn't stick out.
2. Start leaning your upper body to keep the centerline of your upper body to the inside of your bike's centerline.
3. Push on the outside grip to keep the bike going straight.
4. Locate the turn point.
5. After locating your turn point, look through the turn.
6. Now you start turning by relaxing the outside grip.
7. Push on the inside grip until your desired lean angle is achieved. Use only the inside arm to make all steering corrections.
8. Roll on the throttle smoothly.
9. Push on the outside grip to bring the bike upright.
10. Move back to neutral.

I don't do any knee movement, or foot movement, or move my butt around. I just move my upper body from one side to the other, and rotate my head to look through the turn. The upper body movement is enough to move the bike's center of gravity to the inside of the turn. With my upper body toward the inside, it's real easy to push on the inside grip. There is just no time to think about the other things, let alone do them, in the short amount of time that curves change direction in a canyon.

I find that weighting my outside peg gives me that lil bit of "oomph" that will allow me with my momentum to slide to the outside while still accelerating forward...hard to explain but its an incredible feeling, and from something so small!

I place my foot to the outside edge of the peg with foot still on it completely and push down, while gripping with my thigh and leg to the tank and it actually anchors my leg more firmly on the tank, but thats due to the way the gsxr tank is shaped as well.

Im talking straight track riding however, including my post above...street riding i dont make nearly as complex...more of a roll...from side to side like what NW mentions...

Well, here's my contribution to the topic...

Leaning off the bike is a function of velocity and momentum. You're trying to move the center of gravity of the bike/rider combination so that you can keep the bike more upright and carry more speed (the moment of velocity change of the bike). The more upright the bike is in a corner, the more tire is touching the ground and the faster you can go without losing grip. The following information dump includes the things I go over in my head every time I ride my bike.


- Hold all of your weight with your legs. In any given corner, I'm holding on completely with my outside leg. Your arms need to be as loose as possible to get as much feedback from the front wheel as possible. If that thing starts to move around, you want to know, but you'll never feel it if you're tensing up your arms. This is hugely important (and extremely difficult to do) while under intense braking and trail braking up to the apex, which is when you need the most front end feedback from your front tire.

- Your lower body does not have to move very far. Some people exaggerate the movement to try and compensate for poor upper body position and it completely throws the balance of the bike off. Pridmore says rotate around the tank (imagine you had a string going from your suit to your gas cap) only about 3 - 4 inches. This can change depending on the turn and ground clearance, but that's a good baseline. I find this puts about half of my ass off the seat, sometimes more. It also keeps your inside knee tucked in closer to your fairings, so you get a more accurate feel of how far the bike is actually leaned over.

- The real weight distribution when leaned over comes from moving your upper body. Look through the corner with your head and your shoulders (which, as an added bonus, makes the track seem much larger and slower). Get your head down low when exiting and get the bike upright as soon as possible.

- Always keep the balls of your feet on your pegs (unless you're shifting of course). Dig into the pegs with the balls of your feet and dig your heels into the heel guards. Pridmore mentions that he has to replace heel guards often because he continually bends them. This gives you a better feel for what the rear tire is doing, which is important when exiting the corner.

- Get the bike pointed in the correct direction and get it stood up as quickly as possible when exiting a corner. This is the point where your head should be the lowest and you should really be exaggerating hanging off of the bike. Push the bike away from you to get it stood up. I'm not exactly sure where my weight goes at this point, but it feels natural to me. I'm probably pushing on my outside leg (ie: the peg) to lift the bike up, maybe a little movement with the arms as well.

- Less is more. Don't move around on the bike when you don't have to. If there are two right hand corners in a row, even with a straight in between, don't move your lower body all the way back onto the bike, keep it off to the side. The more you move your body, the more the bike's geometry changes.

- Set up early for corners. A fast corner entry does not mean waiting until the last possible second to move your body, hit the brakes, and downshift. Your body position should be set up first. Your downshifts should be quick and smooth and over with before you start your turn-in. Extending your braking zones and using lighter braking can improve your corner speed because your bike will feel more stable. Smooth is fast. As you get smoother and quicker, these actions will start to blend together, but the smoothness will remain. If you watch the fast guys at your local track (I mean the really fast guys, like AMA level), they will often initiate their turning procedures long before you would think.

- Keeping with the smoothness theme, practice letting the clutch out smoothly as you downshift. If you watch Rossi, his clutch is not fully engaged until he hits the apex of a corner. If you're smooth enough on the clutch, there is no reason to blip the throttle on your bike while downshifting. Use the clutch to modulate the RPM's of your bike while engine braking.

- This may seem like common sense, but most people are not patient enough while exiting the corners. If you get on the gas too soon, you can't get to full throttle as quickly because it will push you wide. Patience is the key here. A wider turn-in also helps for most corners where the drive out is important.

- You should only be near full lean in a corner for a short instant, right when you hit your line's apex (not necessarily the physical apex of the corner). Before you hit that point, ideally you want to be trail braking very very slightly and leaning in. As soon as you hit that point, you want to be pushing the bike up and rolling on the throttle. This is the "ideal situation" and will probably never be reached by mere mortals like ourselves, but it gives us something to reach for.

- Know what type of corner you're going through. There are fast corners, entry corners, exit corners, and slow corners. Slow corners are just that... slow. Patience will pay off big time if you just get through the slow corners and set up for the important ones. Turn 3 at LVMS is a slow corner. Fast corners are where you make up the most time, like turn 2, 3, and 4, at Miller or turn 5 at LVMS, these are usually "sweepers". Entry corners have a quick entry, but the exit does not matter, so your entry line can be very tight, these are good corners to pass on the brakes. Turn 3 at SMMR is a good example of an entry corner. Exit corners are the most important, where you exit the corner onto a very quick section of track and drive is extremely important. Turn 4 at LVMS comes to mind, which is a slow, late apex, right hander onto the back straight. Turn 10 at SMMR is another example of an exit corner.

- Pick the important corners and sacrifice the unimportant ones. If you look at SMMR, turn 8 by itself looks like a fast sweeper, but if you look at the track map, you can see that 9 and 10 are very tight afterward. Looking at the series of turns, you can figure out that 10 is an exit corner, and probably the most important one. So to get the most out of this section, you use turn 8 as an entry corner, sacrificing the exit to get a very wide entry into 9. Turn 9 is completely sacrificed to square off turn 10 and get the best drive out of 10.


Hopefully that helps. The corner information might not seem relevant to how to lean off the bike... but each type of corner requires different body movements. Everything is connected in some way on the bike. You guys should be able to look at the track maps for those examples and get an idea of what I'm talking about regarding each corner.

[added]
If you sit on your bike and get in an aggressive riding position, take your hands off of the bars. Those muscles in your back and your stomach that you feel tensing up... those are the ones you use for your upper body. Now, hold that position and lift your ass about 1/4th an inch off the seat. Your legs will probably start hurting right away. Go ride your bicycle and work out those muscles. I stretch before and after every session on the bike, it helps tremendously with fatigue.

Yeah I know, I can easily let go of my clutch hand in a corner and do whatever the fuck I want with it, such as brush the ground if I want to be gay like that. If I didn't have to steer, I could just raise my hands up rollercoaster stylee through corners. Only time I have weight on my arms is hard downhill sections because they are much tougher and I am still not use to them.


There is plenty of time to do all the things you mention as you can't do in the mountains at the gap. Just takes practice.

Thanks, Kurt. Good stuff there. I remember you telling somebody about pivoting around the tank slightly and I started doing that, and it feels great. I also started setting up for my turns earlier, mostly while braking, so when I let off the brakes all I need to do is lean the bike and extend my knee out a bit, while moving my upper body with the lean.

The biggest thing I did though was turn my head evn more through the turn and just using my eyes to look around if need be. I ended up seeing the WHOLE corner and through "bike-eye" coordination, I was able to realize "Hey, I can get on the throttle a lot sooner than I originally thought".

I like this thread.

And another thing, here's what Lee Parks states about body positioning: "A relaxed upper body makes it possible to change direction or speed with repeatable accuracy." Have you ever ridden behind a cruiser rider that looks like his back is stiff against a flat plank as he goes around a curve? Usually not a smooth cornering maneuver. He's either very slow or jerky. And they hardly ever turn their head to look through the turn.

I see that a lot around here. All the old farts that pull their bike out once or twice a month are terrified of leaning with the bike. As I'm leaning into it and rolling on, they're slowing down. (of course no one on this forum falls into that category)

Another thing an instructor and very fast rider told me is that even the slightest bit of bar pressure mid turn not only decreases the bike's ability to stay settled and correct itself, but also increases the radius of your turn.

For example, if you are leaned over and still have pressure on the inside bar, the bike will continue to track more straight than if you let go of it. That's literally how important it is to reduce bar pressure; reducing bar pressure is what really allows the bike to hook into the turn and bite towards the apex.

It's also the reason why people are still completing their turn post-apex, when in reality all your turning should be done and you should be getting on the gas and standing the bike up, allowing the throttle to cause you to track out as you get to WOT and the bike is stood up.

I try to keep a feather's touch on my bars, holding the throttle where it is with a thumb and two fingers, and the other hand with barely a grip on the bars. I know I'm doing it right when I can feel the handlebars jiggling around inside my loosely gripping hands.

That being said, I'm not always good with this, and it's the hardest thing for me and many riders.


I've thought a lot about this stuff since getting this advice and can't wait to keep working on it.
There's plenty of time... ever ride NHMS?

And as far as think them... that's the point of practice, so it becomes automatic technique. Keith Code's $10 of attention, anyone?
:iagree: with both. Thanks Zort. And I like when we actual talk motorcycle technique on here :dthumb:

iF YOU WEIGHT THE INSIDE CLIP-ON, YOU'RE working against the suspension and ultimately pushing your bike outwards. It's all physics.

Exactly... and it's something that you don't think about because the more you push it the FURTHER you are leaned over... so you can be at max lean but still have the bike tracking straighter than it could be.

You might think lean angle directly determines your cornering radius but there are other factors... apparently bar pressure is a biggun.

What are you talking about when you say "tracking"?

It's a term that's more used with cars than bikes, sorry about that.

It just means that's the direction in which it heads.

Now I understand your previous statement...I think. You can be at max lean, but you won't be turning as much as you can be because your weighting the inside, which you would think just lean more and before you know it, you lowside. My avatar is at a point where I lean it just a bit more to finish off a decreasing radius turn. If I was weighting the bar too much, I could easily lowside or over-shoot the turn.

I think we're on the same page here. Basically for a given lean angle, the bike will turn tighter with no bar pressure than if you are pressuring the handlebar... this is counterintuitive to the common notion that lean angle and speed determine the cornering radius.

On top of that, the obvious problem is that handlebar pressure allows the front to wash easily if there are bumps/cracks.

Right! And this thread is the reason why we all do track days. Because it's hard as fuck to master all of this. This is probably one of the best threads in this forum.

For sure. I'm going to rate it 5 stars right now. And it should be stickied.

Talking about this shit is what gets me pumped to get back on the track.

Then I realize my bike is wrecked :lol:

Don't you worry.... shit is going to be so sick when I'm done fixing it, it will boggle your mind ;)

ive been trying to apply some of the things ive read in here and i think ive found a much more effective position than what i had been using. too bad today's weather was extra sketchy so i only got to try it in one well known corner. keep it comin!

trip:

can you critque my form or lack there of? not that i have been in front of you for longer then one or two turns

I haven't been on a racetrack since 1984. And the only time I was in New Hampshire was in 1975 or so for a Geology field camp.

But let me describe a turn, or actually multiple curves on my favorite road. It's a steep, two-lane road with no shoulders. The first curve is blind. It goes around a nose of the mountain. Surprise, it's also a decreasing radius. So you have to lean even more. The road is immediately in a small valley and turns in the opposite direction. Depending on your speed, you have between 1/2 and 1 second to lean the bike fully from one direction to the other.

Picture doing a tight figure-eight at maximum speed and lean. The transition from leaning fully from left to right, and vice-versa has to be done very quickly. Actually, the bike is still leaned over in the direction of the first curve, while the rider has to begin leaning in the opposite direction.

The Total Control class made us practice figure-eights, in both directions, while looking at each instructor in each center of the figure-eight. Only about 25mph, but it was tight. Once you master the figure-eight, mountain and canyon riding are much easier.

I dont know, I don't remember riding behind you.

I know that's a couple things I wasn't doing completly correct. I was putting too much weight on the bars, and I know my feet weren't quite right either, but I got better through the day. and DAMN these bikes will lean a LONG way!!! :dthumb:

After riding on a tight track like loudon, your body positioning becomes second nature and you can switch back and forth VERY quickly.

Also, I find that you can do things with the bike/controls to help to flip the bike and yourself over faster... for example start to decrease lean angle and use that to toss yourself over while you give the bike a little bit of gas, allowing your other side's countersteer to really snap the bike around. You can see me doing (not a great job at) that in the vid I posted in my last TD thread in the chicane of turn 12 which is right before the main straight.

Here's an image for some visual references relating to my earlier post. This is me coming up behind Danny in turn 7 at LVMS. Danny's not slow, he's running 1:28's at LVMS, which is pretty quick for a non-racer.

Here's what's going on in the picture: I'm coming up behind Danny. I actually passed him coming out of this corner. It's a double-apex corner decreasing radius corner, I'm just past the point where I use the most lean, so this is the exit half of the corner (I'm already off the brakes and on the gas). Danny's on a good line, but I'm carrying about 5mph more than him.

Here's what I see: Danny's hunting for the track with his knee, so instead of rotating around the tank, he's moving directly off to the left. This is forcing his upper body to stay more over the tank. It's also pushing his toes out further on his inside foot, which takes away some of his usable lean angle. His arms also look tense in this picture, to me anyway. Also, Danny's looking at the curbing, I'm looking at the next corner (a right hander that's not more than 200ft past this curb). My form is not perfect either, my head should be lower as I exit the corner.

Weird, Danny usually doesn't have form like that. I think he musta been trying something new.

That's a great picture Zort. Shows contrast and such.

Danny at first looks more aggressive... but you look closer and can tell he's putting a lot more effort into what he's doing, and looks tensed up because of it.

Although like DLIT said, it's easy to catch someone at a point when they're not doing things their best, maybe he doesn't ride like this picture at all times.

He doesn't ride like that all the time. I think he's frustrated because he's stuck at 1:28 and he was trying new stuff. Danny and I like to battle on the track. We're about the same pace. He's just got a barrier to get passed. I think he was on a 211GP rear and a 2CT front that day, too. We gotta get him on here, Kurt.

http://motalia.es/wp-content/uploads...edwardsjpg.jpg\
Edwards has good form.

Hahahahaha. That was a shitty race for him. One corner away from sealing a victory and off he goes. Got back up to finish 8th. Woulda been sweet to see him win that, instead it went to Hayden. Hayden's only other win in '06.

This is some good reading material...very helpful info. You guys know of any more places to get info like this?

I just realized what that picture is behind Edwards.. :lol:

There is a reason it's called "A" style. :diitb:

Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Code, Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienastch, Total Control by Lee Parks. All 3 great books with tons of info. Everything these guys are spitting out bits and pieces of are covered in full detail in these books.

I have a question for you guys that have access to real twisties. What does the feedback from the bike feel like, when you're coming close to breaking a tire loose? You don't just suddenly lose it and lowside, do you? Is there some kind of warning that you're pushing it too far?

There's no knee-dragging going on in my neck of the woods, is why I ask. You'd have to break triple digits in a turn to get that low.

Sometimes you can feel it slipping, sometime you just go down without any feedback. Just depends on conditions and what causes you to lose it.

Is it time for The Awesome?
 

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...theawesome.jpg

That pic never gets old.

Short answer is yes, there is some warning, but that's only if you're riding correctly.

Kinda like trip said, it depends WHY you are losing traction.

If you're hanging off and your arms are nice and loose, you'll be losing traction literally due to the tire's limitations. In that case it is predictable and you'll feel the bike moving around a bit underneath you. That's another benefit of being loose is that you can easily feel what the bike is doing.

If you're putting pressure on the handlebars and the bike hits a little bump/crack and the front starts to move around, the gyroscope (wheel) can't correct itself because you're pressuring the handlebar... and BAM. You're down before you can say "tuck the front".


While dragging knee is a good gauge for lean angle (if you have a repeatable body position) and it just 'feels' right... it is not a good gauge of if you are at YOUR limits. With improper technique you will crash at a lean angle much smaller than that required to drag knee.

That's part of why I crashed in T3 last september... the tires were cold, and my handlebar pressure and tense upper body / arms didn't allow the bike to correct itself.

You can loose without notice while riding correctly, tires play an important role in this even when they are hot. Pilot powers have what I like to call a death rattle before they decide they have had enough. It kinda feels like vibration to let you know you are about to be on your ass. Qualifiers from my experience just start slipping. Corsa IIIs seem to follow the Qs line of thinking.

My experience with Corsa III's they step out a bit, just enough to warn you, and if you don't correct what you are doing in like .2 seconds, they go all the would go all the way.

They don't really warn you, they just start sliding, you can learn to control the sliding though. PPs vibrate before they start sliding as a warning.

Good to know as PP's will be my next tire on the 1125, in an attempt to gain a couple thousand miles of wear.

What did you get out of the Corsa?

Rear was to the wear bars after 2900 miles, swapped it out before my track day.

Thinkin I'll get about the same out of this one, and then the front will be shot too.

Because I'm getting faster, I'm getting more feedback from the tires. Usually the back moving a bit because I'm getting on the throttle sooner and a lil bit harder. I can feel it get a little lose. But good tires are good because they actually give you feedback (most times) and you can adjust. The few times I felt my front slide were pretty scary. Last time it happened was on 5/17 in the same corner my POTM was (100mph+). I felt it slide out 3 times during one corner at the same time. It was most likely due to me weighting the bars too much. Scared the shit outta me, but my tires held enough for me to recover. It took me all day to correct it and find the right line.

This may be true to some people and false to some people. Not everybody feels the same about the same tire.

true

that's why Europe rules... even if you got that logo passed what ever approving body there is... it wouldn't last long before it was boycotted


funny thing is I saw it right away.. and was like... no... I'm just perverted... :lol:

Well that would have been great!

Another tip: this helped me a LOT after and instructor helped me with it.

Move your butt EARLY. I move before I even start braking. As I'm rolling off the throttle, I shift my butt over. Then I get on the brakes really hard and in order to stay loose on the bars, all my pressure is against the tank with the inside of my thigh, holding me in place. (essentially I use one of my reference points to move my butt over, which makes me always do it at the right time)

Then, as I trail off the brakes all I have to do is drop my torso since I'm already in position, look through the turn, and get on the throttle ;)

I see a lot of people at the track hopping into their hang-off position right as they are about to make their turn-in input. When you get faster, that shit doesn't fly... you're upsetting the suspension too much.

Every instructor I have dealt with and locals I worked with said to make your entry one fluid motion. Shifting, moving, braking, getting setup should all be one fluid motion so the suspension should only be effected once. Obviously this would take an insane amount of practice.

Read my posts, I already mentioned that.

Exactly.

Another thing to try is what an instructor told me called 'brottle' and 'thrake'... where you have a little bit of overlap when you transition from brakes to gas and vice-versa. It makes the suspension move once instead of twice.

This technique is VERY useful in the rain.

I hate you.

Ignorant cunt.

supercorsa's just kind of slide, the good kind of "nice easy predictable back end is doing its thing, dont mind it" wholesome fun...

Kyle said Bargy says you are not trying hard enough unless you are sliding the tires.

good to know that i can try hard enough when i am trying my hardest...

:leaving:

need more seat time on the track and "special" Gap time this fall and winter

You know what, Chris? I read through all of my posts and I saw the post I made about what you said, but I didn't break it down like you. I mentioned that I set up before the turn in and all I have to do is initiate lean and move my torso off with the bike.

I will add that what you mentioned was one more adjustment I made that brought my times down even further.

Apology accepted :lol:

I found it really helpful to add it at one of my reference points. When I first tried moving my 'butt off' movement back before braking I wasn't doing it consistently in the right place.

Also... it makes you realize that you can brake later and harder, because it's one less thing to worry about at turn-in. When you're about to turn in and you don't have to move your butt around a lot, there isn't anything going on... so you realize you can move your markers up a little bit, since you've taken care of the movement way back beforehand.

We need to get you down to the gap. It helps you a ton. Just so many different turns and setups through one run it's incredible and teaches you a ton.

Later and harder is not always a good thing. Your suspension has to recover more from it. Smoother is better. When you brake normally your suspension is balanced better allowing you to accelerate harder out of the turn. braking later should be more for racing, but it doesn't hurt to practice it. I guess it's all in the rider's perspective of how much later and harder it is. Later and harder for me could be normal for some people.

Don't remind me that I was supposed to go down there and couldn't :panic:
Yeah that's a good point. I think it's good to know HOW late and hard you can brake though, so you can do it if necessary.

Anyways I was just saying when you're not shifting around in the seat when you're about to turn in, you can move all your braking markers up even if you brake the same exact way.

Just a friendly reminder... those wishing to start experimenting with body positioning from "scratch" first need to build a solid foundation... and that starts from the waist UP, not the waist down. (with the exception of your toes... get on the balls of your feet! :P)

Start by relaxing your arms and your grip... you should be able to sit in the riding position with your arms at your SIDES... you should not be relying on your arms to hold up your upper body. This takes a LOT more practice than you think, especially on a bike w/ low hand controls.... This is something just about every rider out there can improve on, even at the racing level.

Second is your eyes and your chin... lead the bike into the turn with your eyes & chin by pointing them THROUGH the direction of turn before you begin to lean the bike.

Third is your shoulders.... Keeping your shoulders relatively square to the bike, lean forward a little and use your inside shoulder the same way you use your chin/eyes.... lead the bike with your inside shoulder and point it through the turn.

Last step before "haning off" is your inside butt cheek.... just weight it a little as you point your eyes, chin and shoulder into the turn. This will keep you from curving your spine and "dipping" your shoulder down instead of pointing it through.


This will get you on your way to hanging off like the pros :)

ur gonna make a nice addition to the board

:yes: Pete is da man :cheers:

Maybe we're all misunderstanding eachother but I still think this pivot around the tank thing is bullshit. Maybe just the way you guys are describing it is confusing me though...

I'm not trying to start an argument but I've been thinking about this and talking to some track folks about it.

I don't see any benefit to NOT squaring your hips to the bike. (Pridmore can do whatever he wants at that level so leave him out of it). All it's going to do is encourage bad things, like crossing up, bar pressure, not looking through the turn, not leading with your shoulder/chin, etc etc etc.... :idk:

Square the hips and shoulders, bodyline parallel to bike centerline. This is what I do, this is what I see all the pros doing. Very slight deviations from this depending on the rider and what makes them comfortable and relaxed. Maybe a larger deviation for some people (pridmore, doohan, duhamel, etc etc etc)... but the general rule of thumb is what I described... eh?

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/f...ngs/5Large.jpg

http://www.automotophoto.com/af1/usg...gp07_alw__.jpg

Or maybe I'm just not understanding what you guys are saying????

look at you and look at stoner, you are stood straight up with your knee sticking straight out awkwardly and he is leading and down in a comfortable position, you are not in the same body position and that photo is not at a good angle to see how his hips are.

Take a look at the master at work:

http://s.harminder.home.comcast.net/...rz-2005_01.jpg

http://www.mcia.co.uk/_attachments/D...action%202.jpg