Passing at the track
 

A comment in another thread got me thinking about passing at the track.

I know it depends which group you're in, but I've never had a problem being passed OR passing.

I know a lot of people say they don't want to hold others up, but it's their responsibility to get around you safely, not your responsibility to get out of their way.

Thoughts?

Biggest thing is hold a line. If you are all over the place, fast or slow, you are fucking up the people behind you.

About what?

You already stated the golden rule: It is the responsibility of the passer to make it happen within the rules set forth.

Yes. I give those people a WIDE berth. :lmao:

I hold my line and if they can't get by me safely, they need to wait until they can. Likewise goes when I'm trying to pass someone.

But I never look behind me. Ever.

Some orgs here have a no inside passing rule, which is stupid IMO and it makes it a bitch to get around someone that isn't courteous. The key is to get up to A group so you can pass them wherever you want.

Really? Le sigh.


I know the golden rule but others obviously do not. I thought it was standard not to look behind you or hold your line and others can pass when they can.

At my local track in the lowest group it's usually passing in the straights and that's it. Intermediate is different and Hotshoe is a free for all (provided it's safe).

That someone shouldn't have to be "courteous." Sean, you know better :nee:

Passing is hinky in most inexperienced groups to begin with. Passing on the inside simply encourages people to act on their impatience. Stalk, learn how predictable that person is, then pass where you can do it safely. This is what we practice.

Are you le tired?

I guess I don't understand what is being discussed here. :idk:

Stick to the rules of your class, and don't be an ass.....and everything should be fine and dandy.

Yet you keep giving your two cents. :shrug:

Passing is being discussed.

Some people know the rule.

Some people don't.

Some people don't ride a lot of tracks with different organizers so are curious to hear other's points of views.

I'm not sure which one you are, but if you have nothing really to add then what's the point?

Actually, I haven't given my two cents.

I have asked for clarification. Twice.

dont be a dick and stuff someone in the corners, follow the line, and pass where allowed. If some is all over the track and you cant pass, pull into the pits, come to a complete stop and get back out, that should give the control riders enough time to get the guy in shape and pass when you catch up

There are two major problems with passing on the outside. First, it often requires you to be significantly faster than the person you are passing, and two, it leaves you directly in the path of a crashing motorcycle/rider if that person happens to go down while you are trying to ride around the outside of them. Inside passing is MUCH easier. It's fast, it's safer for the passer, and it can be done virtually anywhere on the track. Watching national level riders get through traffic is a thing of beauty, because they can do it virtually anywhere without losing time, and with minimal disruption to the slower riders. The better you are the less patience is needed, because in reality, there is almost always room.

Smileyman's rule numba 1. Someone is always faster.

Smileyman's rule Numba 2. Karma is a bitch.

Hold your line, leave some room on the outside of the straights, and have fun

The faster rider usually carries more corner speed and gets a better drive no matter hisline. He or she can pass on the straight if you leave hime 18 inches. If your real squeamish better make that 36 inches...

Clarification, novice and intermediate passing on the inside is dangerous. They have all watched the pros do it. The majority of them have the single goal of "getting a knee down." And, if that means stuffing someone going into a corner letting them brag about how they were Ricky Racer at the track over the weekend passing people, then they will do that.

Most orgs [including my own] don't allow passing in turns for this reason. That is, especially in Novice groups. Learning to hold a line and be confident with that line is sometimes a large enough lesson without someone else in the peripheral.

Derf's note about pit lane - finding your own personal space on the track filled with parades - is IMHO the best way to deal with rules about passing.

She's questioning my reasoning for looking behind me and waving people by on my trackday this weekend. Here's the full story, if you haven't seen it in the other thread.

I was on the V-strom on the track. It was sportbiketracktime. If any of you have ever ridden any of their events, you know they have classroom instruction for beginners and then they take the beginners out in groups of 4 or 5 riders with an instructor. I didn't want to ride in a group of people like that and wanted to ride my own pace. The only way to do that was in intermediate. I was the slowest person in the group, by far, simply because of the bike I was on. I scraped peg numerous times and the back end got loose a few times. I was also running the stock "Death Wings" on the bike. I simply couldn't go much faster without losing it.

I am fully aware that it's the passing rider's responsibility to pass safely and I maintained a consistent line on the track to allow them to do so. However, out of courtesy for the other riders on the track, I would look behind me in certain stretches where it was safe to do so, and I would move off the line so they could pass.

Is there really something wrong with being courteous to other riders that have paid good money for a track day and want to push it to the limit and not be held up by a guy riding a much slower bike?

ETA: I did consider dropping down to the beginner group after the first session in intermediate, but was told I was doing fine and it was ok to stay where I was.

When you're not allowed to pass in the turns and they ride the very outside line of the track on the straights there is no legal way to pass them.

I understand holding novice riders back from passing in corners. The issue I have is organizations that allow passing in corners, but only on the outside. There is certainly nothing wrong with passing on the outside, but opportunities to do it are few and far between compared to a traditional inside maneuver, so new riders should start working on that very early on. If riders were better at passing across the board, track days would be much less frustrating. Having your first opportunity to pass traditionally come when you are grouped in advanced with a bunch of racers and seasoned track riders is a bad situation. Not only will you have trouble filtering through traffic, but you will be unprepared for the maneuvers that faster riders will be putting on you.

Which is a nice segue into...

From the perspective of a faster amateur rider, I do NOT want a slow rider to try to help me pass them. As I approach a slower rider, I already know exactly what I am going to do to get around them when I get there. When riders alter their line, look behind and slow down, or do anything else that is unpredictable, it changes the situation from a calculated maneuver to an educated guess. Educated guesses can end badly if one or both of the riders guess wrong. Some of the closest calls I ever had were scenarios exactly like this.

When slower riders do this, it's often because the faster rider caught them in a spot they personally find difficult/impossible to pass in, therefore they have no idea what the faster rider is about to do to get around them. To execute the pass, the faster rider is counting on the slower one to maintain a predictable race line. If the slower rider becomes aware of the presence of the faster rider and tries to "give up" to allow the faster rider by, they can easily create a collision scenario.

The best thing a slow rider can do for everyone else on the track is to ignore what's behind them and ride in a predictable and controlled manner.

This.

You are better off, if you are slower, to simply maintain your predictable course of travel. And, for the love of all that's holy, don't drag race on the straight when they actually DO pass you.

I am glad there is no passing rules for fiddy racing. Kicking, punching, wrecking, headbutting, running over are all acceptable forms of passing.

good thread Kell, and good responses in here

100% Agreement.

At our local trackdays it is absolutely not allowed in Novice. Azoom explained the reasons why.

While I agree that the outside pass is overly burdensome, that is somewhat on purpose. It places the burden squarely on the passer. If he goes in too hot and stands the bike up, he doesn't collect the bike he tried to pass. Same thing with a washed front end.

How many times have you seen ricky racer with more balls then brains shoot way hot into a turn, brake all the way to the edge of the track, pull a u-turn and rocket to the next missed entry point? Him having to pass on the outside helps protect the riders trying to learn the proper line.

We frown upon passing on the inside in Intermediate but there is room to fudge the rules based on the situation. If you out brake someone into the turn, odds are it is on the inside. We ask that riders get the move done before turning in.

Obviously if you have a multi-turn complex, there may be an inside pass made but we'd prefer you wait until the next straight.

Like Mr. Awesome said please DO NOT try to "help out" the faster riders. They will get by. It is safer for all involved to hold your line and look forward. If I saw you going off-line and looking back, we'd have chat on hot-pit.

Oh...like in Canadian Superbike?

What org are you CRing for?

Still need to get you up here for for an event. NESBA just added 3 dates over the Halloween weekend at Road Atlanta, would you be able to make it? I ride A with them so we'd be in the same group and could turn some laps together. At least until you learned the track. :lol:

If we didn't have helmets there could be possibly some biting incidents. It's no holds barred and it rocks.

This is why I dislike track days, it's too regulated.

www.FloridaTrackdays.com mostly. But I'll ride for whomever asks as long as it gets me in the gate. :)

Let me know when you are doing Road A.

I think I am going to try out the endurance thing at the CCS ROC this year so as long as the weekends don't coincide I'll make it a point to be there.

I had my first track suit get ripped when I got run over racing 50's with SEMRA.

The guy behind me was on a TTR 125 and his peg hit me in the shoulder as I face-planted in the dirt section.

I could lose him on the asphalt but he always caught me in the dirt. I think that kid ran over me like 3 times that weekend. :lol:

lol nice, I love those things. You can race 150% without any fear whatsoever.

Thats more or less what I do, intermediate can be a free for all with the difference in speeds and throw in a few knuckleheads. I would catch up to soem guys and if theyre consistent I know where I can get around them. I know my lines are not 100% perfect but am rathe rclose and am prety consistent so guys can get around me easily.

I wasn't ripping on you. I was just curious as to your reasoning and that got me thinking that maybe different things are allowed with different organizations. It was nothing more than curiosity.

But like others have said, it's not the safest practice. :skep:

It does concern me that you think their money is somehow worth more than yours. Everyone paid to be out there. If the organizers thought you grossly unsafe they would move you to a more appropriate group.

I pay my money the same as the fast guys. I hold my line and am very predictable on the track. It is their responsibility to get around me safely; not my responsibility to let them get their money's worth.

Oh and as a complete aside, I saw a v strom at my last track day and that guy was booking it. Looks like a super fun ride!

Great thread! :dthumb:

I'm pretty much in agreement with most of the posts. I have a phobia of passing and am still trying very much to get over it, making improvement but I hesitate and often lose my chance because I dont have the balls to make the pass. Thus why I'm still in Novice. I cant ride for other people, and its always the thought of "what if they do something crazy" that holds me back. Unless I'm in the zone :lol:. Then I don't even see them other than to dart by. Those are the good days.

It's the passers responsibility to pass safely in all situations. Down here most of the track days allow outside passing only in Novice, but alot of times so long as it's a safe pass, they dont say anything. My last track day my CR had me running ragged chasing her and her hubby (also a CR) down and forcing me to pass others to break me of the hesitation. I saw HUGE improvement and had one helluva time, I cant wait to see them again!

I gotta say, if someone is turned around looking at me, I will immediately get as far from them as possible as they arent paying attention to what they should be paying attention to. In all the days I've done, most instructors are adamant that you NEVER look back. If you get busted doing so, you're in for a very long lecture.

And Derf nailed it on the pitting in. If you just cant safely get past someone, pit. Let them go and give yourself some space. If someone is irritating the shit out of you on the track, pit. It's not worth the stress.

You're out there to become the best rider YOU can be, not to be billy badass and see how many folks you can piss off by scaring the snot outta them.

I will say to, it is not unheard of for me to apologize to someone if I feel I stuffed them, or passed too closely. I know I hated it as a brand new track rider when some jerk was running all over me so I try to extend some courtesy towards others.

And I think another good point is that if someone passes you unsafely (not just because you were scared but a truely unsafe pass), pull in and have a word with the marshalls. They can't see everything.

I had a guy on a supermoto jump the turtles and go offroading to pass me last year. I was in beginner group and there's no passing except on the straights. It was my first track day and I had a huge pink X on my back (meaning give me LOTS of space).

I pulled in all flustered and my buddy came over to see what was up. I told him what happened and he said "He can't pull shit like that" and stormed off to the marshalls and the guy was black flagged.

The gap passes cured me of any fear of passing or being passed. Especially local night runs.

*shudder* Something I have still managed to wriggle out of every year ya'll did it. :lol:

While it cerainly does take away some opportunities and makes things more difficult for the passer, no inside passing rules make for a much safer and less intimidating track day environment. The last thing a novice track rider needs is to be tipping into a corner and have someone come up their inside, especially if they're not used to it or expecting it.

We have no inside passing (after tip-in) at our events and we really stress courteous riding. We encourage people to look back AFTER they have established themselves on the front straight and if there's a bike behind them we advise that it might be a good idea to not accelerate as much as you could, give the bike behind you an opportunity to pass, then give them at least a corner before you attempt a re-pass as chances are they're quicker in the corners than you are. We also stress the fact that you don't need to have perfectly clear track in front of you or be going all out 100% to have fun.

We've had very few complaints with this approach.

Me personally, I have no issue riding behind slower riders. Frustration with the person in front of you is a choice; I choose to not be frustrated as I know I have options. If I want clear track and can't work my way through traffic, I'll just pit in and tell whoever is working pit lane that I want space. It's as simple as that and it only takes 30 seconds as opposed to laps and laps of fighting with other riders, trying to force questionable passes.




The last point I'll make for now is that the one thing I see repeatedly with riders who are getting frustrated that they can't pass, is that they're riding ON the rear wheel of the bike in front of them..... GIVE THEM SPACE! This helps YOU relax a bit & maybe formulate a "game plan" and it also gives you a chance to build up some momentum coming out of a corner so that by the time you reach them you've already built up more speed than they have, making the pass a lot easier. If you're ON their rear tire coming out of a corner then it comes down to a drag race to the next corner that you may or may not win. Make the pass based on your skill as a rider, not your bike's capabilities.

Oreo made me think of a good point.

There is nothing more annoying than a bike that passes me in the straights only to park it in the corners. I know it's going to be a relaxed lap at that point....but it's just aggravating when they blow by you like Ricky Road Racer because they have a litre bike, only to absolutely park it in the corners. Grrr.

Yup... sucks.

The other thing you need to watch out for, is if you pass someone on the brakes just prior to a tip-in point, DON'T merge back onto the line in front of them. You may be faster coming UP to the braking zone, but they may be faster going THROUGH the braking zone. This is especially true at the beginning as they likely won't have to brake as much or as long as you do, since you carried more speed into the braking zone than they did.

So if you pass just prior to getting on the brakes and move over back onto the line, you might cause them to have to jack up on the brakes to avoid hitting you. If you can make that pass, then you should be able to tip-in from the line that you passed them on.

Make sense?

It's interesting you say this, I was told I needed to be RIGHT THERE on the back tire and ready to pass the moment I got an opportunity. Food for thought.

Thats standard fare at a track day sweetie, might as well get used to it and dont let it bother you. Thats why you pit to get away from those folks.

:lol: PERFECT sense. Now if only other folks got it...I get that all the time and having to deal with my bike and not run over their ass can be frustrating to say the least, especially when they jack up the next turn for ya.

Not always, sometimes that can make an ego driven rider ride harder making it even harder to complete a safe pass for a track day. Sometimes it's better to wait off the rider some and let him run wide or not accelerate as hard and take your opportunity when they aren't paying attention to you on their wheel.

This is where you got to take your mind off race mentality and get back to track day mentality. If you have to race wheel to wheel with a rider (if it isn't a buddy or CR) at a track day, it's probably better to pit and find another place on the track. It's hard for a lot of riders to do this because we all have our own egos as well.

Ya I'm getting better at it. I'm to the point now when they go blowing by me in the straights, I laugh and back right off to give them more room.

Nah, definitely not. It's much harder to get on the gas stronger/earlier than somone if you're tucked in right behind them at the apex. Give yourself a "running start" by backing off a bit as you enter the corner, then carry more steam through and out. :)

Unless you know you can intimidate them out of the way. lol It's not exactly safe, but you can scare some people out of the line by riding on their tire.

This one time, at band camp, I mean a track day, there was this lady that was using all the track to get her R6 around. Outside/inside/outside and leaving no room. Balking me twice a session.

I outbraked her from the outside several times, nothing close mind you cause she was braking miles from the tighter corners.

But after dodging her all day I finally lined her up in a corner eaiting to a long straight. She left the usual 18-24 inches on the outside and I got a huge drive,blew by her with my tread on the last inch of asphalt. We couldnt have been an inch apart fairing to fairing, me traveling 15 to 20 mph faster, she left room outsidethe rest of the day..

Funny enough, I learned this passing cars while on a road-trip to my grandmothers house in Wisconsin. All the roads were two lane freeways - if you hugged the back of a car in front of you, you needed to gain speed in the danger of the opposing lane of traffic. If you stalked from farther back, it was minimal time in that opposing lane as you are at passing speed when at their bumper.

Same goes for the track, if you hug that back tire by the time you have decided to move over and speed up to pass - you have spent valuable distance. Slingshot is more efficient, and it doesn't give the person in front of you much notice to compete [if they otherwise might have].

Great points, Oreo.

In reponse to Kells...

:lol: Inevitably at Jennings every time my big brother did that on his 1000, he'd fly off the end of turn 1. And I'd wave as I passed him again.

This one time, at band camp, I mean a track day, there was this lady that was using all the track to get her R6 around. Outside/inside/outside and leaving no room. Balking me twice a session.

I outbraked her from the outside several times, nothing close mind you cause she was braking miles from the tighter corners.

But after dodging her all day I finally lined her up in a corner leading to a long straight. She left the usual 18-24 inches on the outside and I got a huge drive,blew by her with my tread on the last inch of asphalt. We couldnt have been an inch apart fairing to fairing, me traveling 15 to 20 mph faster, she left room outsidethe rest of the day..

cocaine is a helluva drug.

This is what I hated about my first track day in Intermediate. Fuckers trying to bully me all over the track. Fuck that noise - I don't scare that easily.

Excellent point.

I go through this every track day with the Novice and Intermediate riders.

Oreo & Zoomie explained it well: If you sit on someone's back tire, they dictate your speed and throttle pick up points. By hanging back you actually make it easier to pass them.

Posting and editting from the Nokia. I honestly have no clue how that happened.

If they are faster, don't pick up the throttle so fast and let them go ahead and then you have a free track. Track days aren't a race. They aren't loving being right on your butt either. A little courtesy by you or them and the day is more fun for everyone.

I was out there to work on my list of wanted/needed improvements. Getting out of their way wasn't one of those things.

They were just being assholes.:lol

I am not saying get out of their way or even change your line. Just don't pick up the throttle as fast as normal. It doesn't really effect you all that much and they will go by much quicker. If you don't go right away, they will go around. You won't effect your lines or your corner speed (where you need to work on thing), just your acceleration in a straight.

Nah. They are buddies of mine. They were being assholes.

:lol: Well that is your own fault, not the track day.

Here's an article that might interest some of you :)

http://www.tz250racing.com/The_Art_of_Passing.php

Good article. I understand that I shouldn't do anything different. And, fyi to all, I never changed my line during the corner. If someone was going to pass me in a corner so be it, they were going to have to get around me. However, I would look over my shoulder at the beginning of the straights (both short ones and long ones), move out of the way and slow down, and wave a group of riders passed me.
After I let the group past, I would then speed up and get back on line for the next turn.

Oh, and inside passing was permitted. I realize you all think I was being unsafe, but I assure you, I was not. However, I will keep your comments in mind if I ever ride on the track again, which I doubt will happen on the strom.

Something else to consider is the mentality of the trackday rider at the event.

The reason our rules and our look back policy work is because of the type of riders we cater to.

Basically, we stress safety, courtesy, and respect.

We have no inside passing because we want riders comfortable entering the corners, without fear of someone standing them up. Also, if you crash, you won't take out the passee.

Because of our stricter passing rules, we tell riders to take a look back once in a while when coming onto the straight (IF YOU CAN DO IT WITHOUT ALTERING LINE OR SPEED).

Or, if you are not comfortable doing a quick look behind... just don't go WFO on every lap when you hit the straight. If anything, chilling out for a straight will actually help you improve because it gives you a couple of extra seconds to re group.

Again, this all works at our days because of our average riders mentality. At our days, if you show someone a wheel, they are more than happy to let you by. The goal is to learn to ride better... and go home in one piece!

And just to be clear... I am NOT saying our type of days are better/worse. I am saying that there are options out there. If you don't like the way a trackday is run (be it too loose or too restricted), find another organization - don't give up on trackdays or try to fit in a mold that isn't meant for you.

You have to be predictable and hold your lines. You're not racing. A big thing I've seen is noobs kinda late-apexing a corner and coming close to hitting others on the right line. If you're wide, stay wide. Don't shoot in in hopes to catch the apex at the last second. Decreasing radius corners exempt. You can assume a person will swing it in late in a decreasing radius.

This post is the exact reason why inside passing is not allowed for certain groups.

EDIT: I am talking about intermediate and advanced groups here... novice groups I think stricter passing rules do make sense obviously. Also, I am not taking a dig at Tony who I just noticed posted above (Hi Tony) and whose track days I did many of when I was starting out. I am merely saying that more lenient rules can easily help a day run smoother as long as the same logic and sensibility are applied to their implementation and enforcement that you would apply to stricter rules.

In my experience all the no-inside-passing rule does is prevent traffic from flowing. Especially on a tight track.

Maybe a no inside passing at or near the apex of turns rule would make sense. But passing under braking by setting up to the inside, or late apexing and driving out under someone... both of those are simple and common safe passes. In the case of the braking maneuver, you need to get the pass done before the other rider is going to turn in.

There is a very common rider at track days who is just quick enough to be in the way, usually in the intermediate group and on a large displacement CBRGSXRZXRR... they late apex the SHIT out of every corner, starting way outside and swooping in like they are on the street, drive very wide out of the corners, and hammer it in between the corners... without more lenient passing rules this person is impossible to pass for riders of similar speed. And trains of riders all lined up getting frustrated is far more dangerous in my opinion than allowing more passing to be done. This rider, you can talk to them about lines and try to help them (I always do) but often times they are going to ride the way they want to ride. I know you can pit in and look for some empty space... but at a well-attended track day it's going to be an effort in futility... and there is always more than one of "this rider" :)

Most people make safety claims as the reason for these rules... but most of the multi-bike incidents (of which there are few) I have seen involve a rider crashing and someone else (who was waiting to or about to pass them) being unable to avoid them. At a recent track day I saw this first hand, a very good rider (actually novice racer) was set up to the outside and behind of someone quite a bit slower than them about to out-drive them out of a corner, the slower rider tucked the front and the faster rider couldn't avoid their bike.

I think more lenient passing rules help to minimize these incidents (although I don't see a way this particular incident could have been avoided)

To build upon the post above (without quoting the whole thing)...


I don't know about other trackdays, but for us the no-passing on the inside rule starts at the tip in point.

Passing under braking is allowed and encouraged and I believe is one of the safer places to pass...especially when done early in the braking zone.

For the most part though, we simply tell people that if the passer can get fully in front of the passee before tip in point... then it's a legal pass.

We have even gone further and say now that the no passing area is from tip in point to the apex (or the point where both bikes begin standing up their bikes). So setting up an early exit pass can happen too.

In most places, the tip in to apex section is over in a second or two, so making the pass in that area is silly and needlessly dangerous, in my opinion.

As for riders going down and the following rider hitting them, that's an unfortunate case of track riding regardless of the rules.

I know at our days we stress to either make the pass, or hang back... and for gods sake do NOT watch the other bike's tail section... look past them.

We stress "Do NOT go nose to tail" because of the exact situation Chris describes above.

In fact, being on someone's ass is the WORST way to set up a pass, so there is really no reason to do it.

Bottom line is that passing at a trackday is an artform (other than motoring by someone on the straight). It takes a while to learn how to do it safely and minimize the overall risk.

Screw it, you guys should have a slap people on the ass rule before you can pass them.

So you guys allow passing on either side except for tip-in to apex? I didn't know that. It makes sense to me and jives with what I said above. :cheers:


And about the incident I described, in more detail... especially on a smaller/tighter track, if you pass on the outside you are going to open yourself up to that possibility almost no matter how you pass them. Eric (I'm sure you know him) was not set up on the guys tail, the slower rider just happened to crash at the wrong moment as his initiated his move. This was going up turn 4, so it was a somewhat odd place for the slower rider to tuck the front in the first place. Like you described, just a track incident that can happen regardless of the rules.

I have done this to friends... ;)

But it still happens.

Not sure I quite understand what you're getting at? There's rules/regulations for a lot of things, but they still happen.

I whole heartedly agree that you should hold your line... but your line may be different than someone else's and you should ride accordingly and with a healthy safety margin.

Yes.

Keep in mind we're talking about noobs in the noob group. Taking inappropriate lines happens a lot in that group.

haha... Cheers to that. I spend most of my track days in that group tryin to fix em :p

Luckily (knocks on wood) I can't even remember the last time we had a bike-to-bike incident that was the result of using poor lines, or if it's even happened. We've had a couple of incidents over the years at our events involving two bikes, but typically it's something like one crashing right in front of the other and the second rider going down while trying to avoid the downed bike/rider.