want a 600cc SS bike for a first bike?
 

Form Equals Function: Sportbikes are Not Beginner Bikes

Introduction

Well, another riding season is upon us and as it always happens, we get lots of inquiries from potential new riders on how to get into the sport, what's a good first ride, where to take safety classes and so on. One particular type of inquiry that pops up with almost clockwork frequency is from a small number of new riders who wish to buy 600cc and up sportbikes as their first ride.

For the past year and a half, I, along with lots of other BB forum members, have entertained this question of 600cc sportbikes for a first ride with patience and lots and lots of repetition. It seems this small group of newbies keep coming back with the same arguments and questions over and over again. As a result, I am going to take the time in this column to try and put into words, answers that get repeated over and over on the BB forums.

Allow me to state first and foremost that I am a sport rider. My first bike was a Ninja 250R and I put nearly 7000 miles on it in two seasons before selling it. I am presently shopping for my next ride and it will almost certainly be a sportbike or sport tourer in the 600-1000cc range. I am also building a track bike in my garage which I hope to complete this season (a Yamaha FZR600). Although I am not an expert rider by any stretch, I have tinkered enough and done enough research along with talking with other riders to be able to speak with some degree of knowledge on the subject.

This column is split into two parts. First, I would like to address the common arguments we see here as to why a 600cc sportbike simply must be a first ride along with rebuttals. Second, I want to cover the rationale behind why the BB community-at-large steers new riders away from these machines.

False Logic

On about a three month interval, a whole slew of questions pop up on the BB forum from potential riders trying to convince the community that a 600cc sportbike is a suitable first ride and then proceed to explain to us why they are the exception. I can almost set my clock to this pattern of behavior since it is almost swarm-like. I guess the newbies figure by swamping the forum with the same questions in lots of places we might trip up and endorse such a machine. Hasn't happened yet but they keep on trying.

For those of you that come to Beginner Bikes trying to convince us to endorse a 600cc sportbike, I offer you the following responses to your arguments.
I can only afford to get one bike so it might as be the one that I want.

I don't want to go through the hassle of buying and selling a used bike to learn on.

These two lines of reasoning pop up as one of the more common arguments. I am going to offer first a piece of wisdom which is stated with great regularity on the forums:

This is your first bike, not your last.

Motorcycle riders are reputed to change bikes, on average, once every two to three years. If this is the case (and it appears to be based on my observations), the bike you learn to ride on will not be in your garage in a few years time anyway whether you buy it new or used. You're going to sell it regardless to get something different, newer, more powerful, more comfortable, etc.

Yes, buying a bike involves effort and a financial outlay. Most of us simply cannot afford to drop thousands of dollars on a whim every time we want to try something new. Getting into riding is a serious commitment in time and money and we want the best value out it as much as possible.

However, if you can afford to buy outright or finance a 600cc or up sportbike that costs $7000 on average, you can probably afford to spend $2000 or so on a used bike to learn on. Most of the beginner sportbikes we recommend here (Ninja 250/500, Buell Blast, GS500) can all be found used for between $1500-$3000.

Done properly, buying and selling that first bike is a fairly painless process. Buying a used bike is no harder than buying new. I would argue it is a bit easier. No different than buying a used car from a private seller. If you've done that at least once, you'll know what to do in buying a used bike.

Selling a beginner bike is even easier. You want to know why? Because beginner bikes are constantly in demand (especially Ninja 250s). These bikes spend their lives migrating from one new rider to the next to act as a teaching vehicle. It is not uncommon for a beginner bike to see four or five different owners before it is wrecked or junked. There are a lot of people out there looking for inexpensive, reliable bikes and all of our beginner recommendations fit into that category.

If you buy a used Ninja 250R for $1500, ride it for a season or two, you can be almost guaranteed that you will be able to resell that bike for $1300 or so when you are done with it provided you take care of it. And on a bike like the Ninja 250R, the average turnaround on such a sale is two to three days. No joke. I had five offers on my Ninja 250R within FOUR HOURS of my ad going up on Cycle Trader. I put the bike on hold the same day and sold it four days later to a fellow who drove 500 miles to pick it up. My bike never made it into the print edition. Believe me, the demand is there.

And look at it this way: For those one or two seasons of riding using the above example, excluding maintenance costs which you have no matter what, you will have paid a net cost of $200 to ride that Ninja. That is extremely cheap for what is basically a bike rental for a year or two. Considering it can cost $300 or more just to rent a 600cc sportbike for a weekend (not including the $1500-$2000 security deposit), that is economic value that you simply cannot argue with.

Vanity Arguments

The beginner bikes you recommend are dated and ugly looking.

I want something that's modern and stylish.

I want a bike that looks good and that I look good on.

I call these the vanity arguments. These are probably the worst reasons you can have for wanting a particular bike.

I will not disagree that aesthetics plays a huge part in the bikes that appeal to us. Motorcycles are the ultimate expression in personal taste in vehicles. Far more than cars. Bikes are more personal and the connection between rider and machine is far more intimate on a bike than a car. On a bike, you are part of the machine, not just a passive passenger.

However, as entry into world of riding and with the temporarily status that most beginner bikes have in our garages, looks should be the least of your concerns. As long as the bike is in good repair and mechanically sound, that is usually enough for most new riders to be happy. Most riders are happy to ride and they will ride anything given the choice between riding or not riding.

If you are looking at bike mainly because of how it looks and/or how you will look it and how others will perceive you on it, take a good, long, honest look as to why you want to ride. There are lots of people out there who buy things strictly because of how it makes them appear in the eyes of others. It's shallow and vain but it is a fact of life. It shouldn't be a factor in choosing that first ride but it is. I won't deny that.

The difference is: a BMW or Mercedes generally won't leaving you hanging on for dear life if you stomp on the accelerator or throw you into the road if you slam on the brakes a little hard. Virtually ever sportbike made in the past 10-15 years will do both of those things given a chance to do so (for reasons that will be explained later in this column).

The population at large may think you're cool and look great on that brand new sportbike and ohh-and-ahh at you. The ohhs can quickly turn to screams of horror should, in your efforts to impress the masses, you wind up dumping your bike and surfing the asphalt. Will you still look cool with thousands of dollars in damage to that once-beautiful sportbike and with the signatures and well-wishes of your friends on the various casts you'll be wearing months afterwards?

You Be The Judge

I'm a big rider so I need a bigger bike to get me around.

I'm a tall rider and all of those beginner bikes just don't fit me the way the sportbike does.

I'll look huge and foolish riding on such a small bike.

My friends will laugh at me for riding something so small.

These arguments are almost as bad as the vanity arguments. The difference being is they simply show a lack of motorcycle knowledge for the most part.

Unless you are over 6'3" tall or are extremely overweight (meaning well over 300lbs), even the smallest 250cc motorcycle will be able to accommodate you without difficultly. To provide an example, the Ninja 250R has a load limit of 348 pounds. That is more than sufficient to accommodate a heavier rider in full gear and still leave plenty of space for cargo in tank, tail and saddle bags. Or enough to allow two-up riding between two average weight individuals.

The idea that bigger riders need bigger bikes is almost laughable. It's like saying small drivers need Honda Civics but bigger drivers only 100 pounds heavier need to drive Hummers to get around. Or Corvettes with plenty of power to pull their ample frames, as the analogy goes. It is only because of the small physical size of bikes compared to their users that this train of thought even exists. It simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. A look at any motorcycle owner's manual will confirm that for you.

Tall riders suffer more from fit issues than weight issues. On this, they do have a point. I'm a taller rider (6'1"). I do fold up quite comfortably on the Ninja 250 which is considered a small bike. I found it perfect for my frame. Others haven't. Then again, my knees hit the bars on bikes like the Rebel 250 and Buell Blast. Just different ergonomics that didn't fit me.

For taller riders, a much better beginner fit is a dual-sport machine rather than a sport machine. They offer the high seat heights that make them comfortable rides and their power is well within acceptable limits. We have a small but vocal dual-sport community here and they will tell you, quite rightly, that a dual-sport is just as capable on twisty roads as a sportbike. The same properties that give sportbikes their cornering ability is also possessed by dual sports (high center of gravity).

As to peer pressure, I admit to taking more than my fair share of ribbing from my 600cc riding friends. Some of it good natured, some of it not. In the end, this argument falls into the vanity arena. Which is more important: Your safety and comfort on a bike or what your friends think?

The ways to deal with friends giving you a hard time about a smaller ride is very simple. Tell them to ride their rides and you'll ride yours. It's your ride, after all. Most true riders will accept other riders, no matter what they are on. Only posers and losers care that your ride doesn't measure up to their "standards". And if so, do you really want to be riding with them anyway? It's more fun to stand out than to be a member of a flock anyway. And if they don't buy that line of reasoning, try this one: "Well if you don't like my ride, why don't you go buy me something that you will like?". THAT will shut them up REALLY fast. It works too. Unless their name is on the payment book or the title, it shouldn't be their concern.

If your friends can't deal with your decisions, you're probably better off looking for new friends. And if you can't deal with the peer pressure, then you are putting your own safety at risk solely because of what others think. Revisit the vanity arguments above and think about why you want to ride.

Decision Justification Arguments

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

These arguments are the most common ones put forth and the ones that are hardest to deal with. These are the arguments that start flame wars. Because it is on these arguments that you have to convince someone the idea of what a beginner bike is over their preconceived notions.

The arguments also often surface in what I call the "decision justification arguments". Many new riders have their heart set on a specific bike and often come to BB to ask about it not to get real advice but to get confirmation that their decision is right. In cruisers, standards, scooters and dual-sports, more often than not these "pre-decisions" are generally good ones. In sportbikes, more than 3/4 of the posters are trying to get the community to approve their choice of a 600cc machine as a first ride. Their shock is quite real when they are barraged with answers that don't meet their expectations and that is when a flurry of oft-repeated discussion ensues.

Let's take each argument in turn since these are the ones that turn up with regularity.

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

The purpose of a first bike is to allow you to master basic riding skills, build confidence and develop street survival strategies. You don't grow into a bike. You develop your skills on it. As your skills develop, so does your confidence and with it, your willingness to explore what the bike is capable of.

But you are also entering in a contract with the bike. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike to act on your inputs and the bike in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike doesn't know that. It does what it is told. You want a partner in a contract to treat you fairly. On a bike, you don't want it fighting you every step of the way. And like most contracts, the problems don't start until there is a breakdown in communication or a misunderstanding.

In sportbikes, the disparity between a new rider's fledgling skills and the responsiveness of the machine are very far apart. That is a wide gulf to bridge when you are still trying to figure out what the best inputs and actions on the bike should be. Ideally, you want your bike to do what you tell it and do it nicely. You never want the bike to argue with you. Modern sportbikes, despite their exquisite handling will often argue violently right at the moment a new rider doesn't need them to.

Remember, riding is a LEARNED skill. It does not come naturally to the majority of us (save those like the Hayden brothers who were raised on dirt bikes from the moment they could walk). It must be practiced and refined. Riding is counter-intuitive to most new riders. It doesn't happen the way you expect. For example, at speeds over 25mph, to get a bike to go right, you actually turn the bars to the left. It's called counter-steering and it eventually comes naturally as breathing once you've been in the saddle for a while. But for new riders, this kind of thing is utterly baffling.

You want your skills to grow in a measurable and predictable fashion. You have enough to be fearful of riding in traffic. The last thing you need is to be fearful of what your bike might do when you aren't ready for it. It's never a good situation.

It is interesting to point out that only one manufacturer, Suzuki, explicitly states in their promotional material that their GSX-R family of sportbikes are intended for experienced riders. This also applies to several of their larger, more powerful machines (such as a GSX-1300R Hayabusa). If Suzuki issues such a warning for its top-flight sport machines, it is reasonable to say that the same warning would apply equally to similar machines from other manufacturers.

In Part One of this article, we covered a lot of the excuses that new riders give for wanting to start on a 600cc sportbike. This second half finishes off our discussion of this reasoning and discusses why high-powered sport machines are not the ideal beginner machine.

False Logic Completed

Last month, we covered many of the reasons new riders give to justify why they want or should get a 600cc sportbike. Now we finish with the last and most common excuses given.

I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

This is what I call the "I'm responsible and mature" argument. This one is a general excuse and does not apply to sportbikes in particular.

Recent studies have shown that 90% of all drivers feel that they have average to above-driving abilities compared to other drivers on the road. These drivers also said that they think 60% of those on the road are less skilled than they are. It's an interesting perception as it indicates a mentality that everyone else is sub-par, not you. Obviously someone has to be wrong because the percentages just don't add up.

A proper attitude towards driving as well as riding is essential. But these same drivers who see themselves as superior also engage in dangerous driving habits (aggressive weaving, illegal passing, bad merges, following too close, lack of attention to traffic/road conditions, etc). Very few drivers are truly honest with themselves and their ability to handle a vehicle.

The problem is, on a bike, the perception that you are responsible is not enough. On a bike, you must be. You either learn to be or you are going to be in trouble really quick. In talking with other riders I have found that they tend to be much more defensive and thoughtful drivers behind the wheel because riding raises their perception of their surroundings.

Ultimately, responsible and mature does not equate to riding skill. It has nothing to do with it except how you will approach riding in general. You want to know the sign of a responsible rider? Look at their gear. Are they in full safety gear? Watch them ride. If you are seeing them turn their heads to clear their blind spots, making careful and smooth maneuvers, leaving a nice, safe amount space around them and working to maximize your chance of seeing and knowing what they are doing, then you are looking at a responsible rider.

Now do the same exercise and watch the drivers around you. How many turn their heads to check their blind spots, signal lane changes, leaving several car lengths of space in front of them, weave in and out of traffic or dash to the end of a ramp and then attempt to force themselves onto the highway rather than yield like they are supposed to? I'm willing to bet it's not going to be a pretty significant percentage. Now imagine these same individuals on a bike. I'm sure you'll be able to spot more than a few of these types on bikes to (just look for the T-shirts and flip-flops as they blast by you at 100mph on the Interstate on the right).

How you approach the task of driving is how you will approach riding. Attention to the task of riding is the number one way you avoid trouble by not getting into it in the first place. Study your own driving habits. Good habits will definitely keep your chances of getting into trouble but they have little to do with controlling a motorcycle. Any motorcycle. Many lax drivers often become much better drivers as the result of riding a motorcycle. It is far less common for it to go in the other direction.

I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

Of all the excuses and justifications, this one is my personal favorite. It is in the top three most common excuses given and it shows a complete and utter lack of motorcycle knowledge. It is a statement made out of naivety rather than ignorance.

Most of the folks who make this statement own fast cars (Corvette, Mustang, Acura, modified Civic, etc) or think they do. The belief is that if you can drive fast in a car you can handle a bike that can go fast. I would argue unless these folks race cars on weekends, driving a car that can go fast does not make them a experienced high-speed driver. And for those that do understand how to handle a car at high speed, it gives you knowledge of braking and traction but even that knowledge is useless for one simple reason:

Bikes are not cars.

Braking, traction control, acceleration and handling are totally different on a motorcycle. Cars do not lean. Bikes do. When bikes lean, it changes the part of the tire contacting the ground (the contact patch/ring) and changes the stability and dynamics of the bike from moment to moment. The physics of motorcycle control are in a league of their own. Even the ability to race cars will not give you instant godhood on a motorcycle.

Are you aware that a racing motorcycle (any 600cc supersport made today basically) when it is turning is touching the ground with an amount of rubber equal to a couple of postage stamps? The same applies to any street bike at deep lean angles except they don't have the advantage of a smooth surface to hold on to or sticky race tires. Now imagine having to control the power and the amount of traction you are getting in that space.

Like being responsible, the ability to handle a car at high speed has nothing to do with handling a fast motorcycle. You are missing two wheels, a cage and a seatbelt on a bike. Turning at 70mph becomes a whole different world on a motorcycle compared to car. Braking is a different experience too. It is fairly hard to stand a car on its front fender if you stomp on the brakes. It can be done with two fingers, a good amount of speed and a moment of panic on a sportbike. The only cars that have brakes equal or better than that of a sportbike built in the last 10 years is a Formula One race car.

The skills to handle the potent combination of acceleration, instant-on power and brakes are best learned on a smaller machine so when you finally get on that ultimate sportbike, you have an idea of what to do and how to handle the machine. Driving a car won't give you that. Only time in the saddle, the more, the better.

Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

This is probably the number one reason that pops up. However, it isn't so much a reason as an observation. And it is a true one. Every year, lots of new riders go to their local dealerships or scour their local ads and bring home a brand new or used 600cc sportbike. And many of those riders do successfully manage to get through their learning process on these machines.

The purpose of a first ride more than any other is to get the risk of riding for the first year or two as low as possible. You want your margin of forgiveness in the bike to be as wide as possible. A 600cc sportbike gives you very little of that. Yes, a 600cc down low is a tame if sensitive machine. However, it takes very little twist on the throttle to induce a large jump in rpm's. A brief bump on a pothole with a death grip on the throttle can introduce a 4000rpm jump in the blink of an eye (speaking from personal experience). In an experienced rider's hands, this is alarming but recoverable. A gentle rolloff or a little clutch feathering manages the surge nicely. In the hands of a newbie trying to figure out the best reaction to such a scare, a rapid closeoff or a panic brake is often the result and can get you into trouble very, very quickly.

Yes, a new rider can start on a 600cc sportbike. It is NOT RECOMMENDED! The reason this line of reasoning pops up so often is because everyone feels they are the exception rather than just another new rider. It makes sense. It's hard to think of oneself as just another face in the crowd. As a rider, I know I am just another average rider. Although I have track aspirations, I have no doubt as to where my skill level is and it is definitely not in (or ever was) in the "start on a 600cc exceptional group".

In the end, to deal with this line of reasoning is going to involve the new rider, not the one giving the advice. No one can stop that person from going out and buying a 600cc sportbike as a first ride. And maybe they will succeed and crow about all the bad advice they received on starting small. Great! They were the exception.

What you don't hear about are the non-exceptional people. Very, very few new riders who start on 600s come back to talk about their experiences if they aren't in the "I've had no problems." group. On the forums recently, there have been a couple folks who admitted they got 600cc sportbikes to start on and indicated that it had been a less-than-ideal choice. This type of honesty is refreshing and it is very, very rare. I am grateful these riders stepped up.

Most of the time, we never learn the fate of those riders who start on 600s. Some make it and simply never bother to tell their tales except to friends. Some wind up scaring themselves so badly (by getting out of control or by actually dumping the bike and injuring themselves) that they sell off and never ride again. These types can be found. Just troll the ads for new supersports with one owner and low miles. The worst of this class of riders are the ones who become "born again safety advocates". These riders who scare themselves out of riding occasionally become preachers that tell anyone who will listen that "motorcycles are dangerous and should be banned". What they don't tell those they are preaching to is how they got that way. It's bad enough having to deal with the general public (who are at least honestly unaware of what riding is about) but a lot worse to be sabotaged from within by someone who did it to themselves and got in over their head.

Then there is the last group of these "started on a 600cc sportbike" riders that never tell us their tales. They never do because they can't. Instead, they enjoying peaceful surroundings and occasional visits by bereaved family and friends. They made that one mistake, that one error that compounded into a tragedy of inexperience. They can never tell us what that error was so we can learn from it and maybe also tell us that they should have started on something smaller. They were successful right until the point their skills and luck ran out. This can happen to any of us on any bike. But, in the end, new riders on a powerful sportbike can be a recipe for disaster.

Be honest with yourself. Very honest. Take the advice and wisdom of others more experienced than you and consider what they are saying. They may have a point. But if you opt for that 600cc sportbike, be assured you will still be accepted as a rider and still encouraged to act as safely as possible at all times.

The Final Equation

We've covered the reasons why people justify or want to get a 600cc sportbike. But we have one more thing to answer and it is simple: What makes these bad bikes to start on?

Sportbikes are built as racing machines, pure and simple. They are built in response to guidelines laid down by racing bodies for a particular class and made to win races in that class. Ducati, for example, spends most of their existence building bikes to win races. Since 1950, Ducati was always a racing bike manufacturer first and their products reflected that philosophy. A by-product of winning races is the fact that people see those winning machines and want to ride them (if you're going to ride, you might as well ride the best as it goes). It didn't take the motorcycle manufacturers long to figure out that there was a market demand for these machines and reacted accordingly.

Sportbikes represent a technological arms race. This has really become apparent in the past 5-10 years where new models eclipse last years models with better performance and capability with each passing year. To compare a 1989 Honda CBR600F Hurricane (the original CBR) to a 2003 CBR600RR is pointless. There is no comparison except in the model designation showing a distant family relation. The new CBR is lighter by at least 50 pounds and packs 30 percent more power, handling and braking ability that makes the original CBR look like a ponderous dinosaur. But just because that original CBR dinosaur has been eclipsed doesn't make it any more tamable. If anything, older sportbikes are far more temperamental than the descendants.

Consider the fact that this year a privateer (independent racer) bought a Yamaha YZF-R1 off the showroom floor, took off the lights and mirrors, added a race belly pan, exhaust and tires and placed in the top ten at the AMA Superbike race at Daytona. The bike was two weeks off the floor and basically stock (the modifications with the exception of the pipe are required). Since factory sponsored teams tend to take the top slots, any privateer that can break in the top ten is doing well by anyone's definition.

Because sportbikes (and especially 600s since they compete in the most populous racing class out there) are designed first as racing machines, they are built with handling, acceleration and speed in mind. Not just one quality at the expense of others but all of them in abundance! Centralizing the mass of the bike at the center of gravity (CoG) gives the bike neutral stability. The high riding position and the perching of the rider over the CoG gives the bike the ability to flick over rapidly.

The steering geometry and short wheelbase of these bikes is designed to provide short and rapid directional changes. Combined with the higher CoG and mass centralization, the steering setup is what gives sportbikes their amazing turning ability.

Engine designs vary but have settled on V-twins and inline fours as the preferred choices. The sportbike V-twins are liquid-cooled, high-rpm engines designed to generate massive torque (hence acceleration) and power in the mid-range of their design limits. Witness the success of Nicky Hayden and Miquel Duhamel on the Honda RC51 in AMA Superbike as testament to the massive grunt these engines put out. So potent in fact that the AMA changed the rules for the following season to even the odds between the V-twins and inline fours. The inline four equipped bikes simply couldn't outpower the twins on curvy portions of the race circuit.

The inline four is by far the most common engine layout in sportbikes including all 600cc sport designs (the Ducati 620SS has a V-twin but is air-cooled and the bike is not a racing machine). All of the sportbikes that new riders lust after are equipped with this engine design. High-rpm capability (redlines vary between 11K and 16K rpm), liquid cooled and designed to produce peak power at very high rpms. The inline four delivers smooth and increasing power as the throttle is opened. Power tends to build to the peak point, at which power the engine will tend to surge to peak power and fall off as the peak point is crossed. Although nowhere near as bad as a race-tuned two-stroke (which literally double their horsepower as the engine transitions to peak power), the engine displays its roots as a racing thoroughbred.

A 1mm or 1/16 of an inch twist of the throttle can easily result in a 2000-4000rpm jump. You can be cruising along at a sedate 4000rpm, hit a pothole and suddenly find the bike surging forward with the front end getting light at 7000rpm. Definitely unnerving the first time you experience it.

And then there are the brakes. Braking technology has gotten progressively more potent over the past ten years. Even older sportbikes sport twin disc setups with two or four piston calipers designed to get these bikes down from 150mph to 60mph as quickly as possible. Current generation bikes are unreal. These brakes have grown to six piston calipers with massive discs whose sole job is to slow a 180mph missile down to corner speed in the shortest distance possible. If you ever watch racers, notice that they tend to only use two fingers to brake. They don't need anymore than that. The brakes are almost too powerful. And accidents happen on the track a lot due to bad or late braking.

All of these qualities produce an exquisite riding machine. The problem is, all of these qualities are designed to operate at extremes since it is under extreme conditions that these bikes are intended to operate. For the street, these capabilities are overkill. A hard squeeze of the front brake on the street can easily get a sportbike to lock its front wheel. Same applies to an over-aggressive stomp on the rear brake. No matter which way you slice it, highsides hurt.

The powerful engine can literally get you from 0 to 45mph in the blink of an eye in first gear. Come up one gear and you can be at 70mph with the slightest drop of your wrist. Add in one bump at speed without knowing what the throttle is going to do and suddenly you aren't at 70mph anymore. You're at 90+ mph and the bike is tickling its "sweet spot". At this speed, you better not panic. If you botch the slowdown from this error (either by a rapid rolloff or a shift), you can find yourself in serious trouble.

The handling capabilities of sportbikes actually make them wonderful machines to ride once you are used to thinking where you want to go. This actually gives them great beginner qualities (if on the extreme end). The downside is this perfect handling is slaved to amazing power on tap and the brakes that can back it off just as quickly.

In the final equation, a 600cc sportbike is little more than a racing machine with street parts bolted on. They aren't designed for street use; they are adapted to it. But no compromises are made in that transition. The same R6, GSX-R600, ZX-6RR or CBR600RR you can buy off the showroom floor can be converted in an afternoon, be at the track the next day and wind up winning races. And the sportbikes from 10 years ago were the R6s, Gixxers, Ninjas and CBRs of their day. They possessed the same qualities that their modern descendants do just not with the same maximums. Even today on the street, a 15 year old sportbike is little different than its 2003 cousin. The 2003 might accelerate quicker, stop shorter and lean farther but at the speeds us mortals ride at, there will be little difference.

Sportbike technology has gone an amazing distance in twenty years. Performance and ability has almost doubled in that time. But rider ability has not and a new rider from 20 years ago would still have the same challenges then as a new rider would today on an R6.

Sportbike form evolved to meets its function: to win races. Always has, always will. And riders will lust after these technological marvels for that reason. Can you start out on one? Yes. But you can also pretend to be a GP racer on a smaller sportbike that gives up nothing to its bigger brothers where most of us spend our riding days. It is always more satisfying to smoke a 600cc or 1000cc sportbike in the twisties on a Ninja 250 or GS500 than a bigger bike.

But when you are ready to answer the call of the Supersport, they will be waiting for you and you'll be better off having honed your skills on the smaller sportbike. Supersports are not beginner bikes. But they make great second and third bikes.

The choice is yours. make a smart one, because it will impact your life

by Matt Pickering
NOT RACER X, but the article makes alot of sense.

Excellent post and many, many valid points. Another great read along the same lines....

http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?t=1750

reminds me of a 3 year old essay a buddy of mine wrote...

the only thing I would add is the "I have a small penis, I NEED a big bike" theory of bike choosing. applies to veterns as well as noobs though...

Did you pull that off my myspace?

You did!

You whored my myspace!

My myspace account ahs been whored out!

Oh well, its a great read.

Uh-oh. Ed's starting his start small campaign over here

actually the logic i used was "if i can handle a seventy two ton tank, i can handle a bike"

very similar machines... I can't really say shit. I went from a Buell Blast to an R1.

you'd be surprised. the M1 is easy to learn but TOUGH to operate smoothly actually i found that my time in airplanes was what had the most in common though that was more in the scanning and awareness area

One of my first bikes was a V-Max. IDK,typically,I try and talk new riders out of 'Busas,literbikes and 750s. If you can talk a guy out of a 'Busa and into a Ninja 250,you can probably also talk him into holding his Mom while you ass rape her!!!
I am only willing to be hypocritical to a point. You'll never get me on a 250...

howd you like the max tiggs? ive always wanted one. rode a gz250 a while back, i honestly cant imagine learning much on that thing. its barely even a bike to begin with

Hmmm, im an ignorant asshole. . . and i took the advise against EVERYTHING i thought and got a Baby ninja. . .

And i dont really see WHY everyone thinks they need to start on a big bike. . . .oh wait i wanted to get an older 600/750. . .


But seriously to any newb. . .get a 250 or 500. . . . . . they really are faster then you think . . . and ALOT cheaper to fix then a nice SS bike. .

Yes they may be pretty and people look at them differently then say a baby ninja. . .

Besides a 36HP EX250 is plenty for someone learning. . . . dont need anything over 50HP

Cue the "I started on a 600 or bigger and I was fine" folks...

(Seriously, go watch a half-dozen MSF classes and tell me most of 'em would be okay if they just respect the throttle... :lmao:)

I loved the V-Max! Lots of character and a great place to learn throttle control and how to recover from a tank slapper!!!

To anyone else,I have long fought this "You HAVE to start on a 250 or you're a stupid,vain,ignorant squid" battle for decades and I will be glad to fight it with you all (if Trip will let me that is....). The problem I have with these posts is not the advice given. It is great advice. I HATE the sanctimonious fucking,"I know better than you" way you jackasses deliver it!

When I came back from the gulf and after spending a couple months in the hospital. My ass went out and spent my combat pay on the bike I wanted! So I'm with Dave on this one.

If a guy comes up to me and asks my advice on what is a good starter bike and has zero experience. I ask him what he wants and then try to bring him down a notch or two if necessary/possible. I encourage him to take classes and if I know him,I offer to help him learn the ropes. What I don't do is stand over him and tell him that all his "EXCUSES" for wanting that bike are STUPID AND WRONG!!!:panic: Who the fuck am I to tell a GROWN MAN/WOMAN what they can spend their hard earned money on? Or what they can or can't handle?


BTW Last I checked (and I could be wrong),everyone on this board is an experienced rider and we really didn't need you to come over here and counsel us on what bikes we should buy. You can go ahead and take that shit back to where ever you came from. Thanks anyway!:dthumb:

strange, more soldiers in the last yr have died on bikes (sportbikes specifically) then in IRAQ, strange but true.


and correct me if i'm wrong, but this is the "beginner's end" i assume, new rider section?

found the answer

"For future riders and new riders looking to increase their knowledge."

I agree tig... but when someone ASKS you what they should start on... and you say a 250 or 500 then they say... "aww... but I was leaning towards the 1000" it gets fuck'n annoying... or the "well I'm mature for my age" or "I know myself... I'll get tired of it'' to me those are completely BS and retarded answers... and it's hard for me not to say so.

in reality no... I have no say in what he/she spends their money on... but if you don't want my advice don't ask. if you just want someone to support your preconceived choice... stand in front of a fuck'n mirror and ask away!

in the end... that's the only one who really cares anyhow.

i disagree. thats why i became and inst. vs an i-net opinion.

but i agree w/ the rest of your comment.

personally its a good topic and should be left up cause new riders come in and search the old posts and learn from the in the informtion that you lay down

but do you REALLY care what bike every rider is on? yes I'm sure you care that he/she is safe... but the TYPE of bike doesn't really matter. or at least shouldn't.

I for one could care less what you ride... the fact that you ride, and more importantly HOW you ride... is important to me.


I too want to try instructing... eventually... need about 60k more under my belt before I even start pursuing it.

Oh I agree with that...if someone asks...I'm just wondering....who the fuck asked? I mean did you actually read that long ass,sanctimonious,egomaniacal,load of shit? BTW I guarantee that YOU do not meet his criteria for buying that super sport that you want buddy. In fact,according to him you were an IDIOT for buying the bike you did get!!! How does that feel? Were you a fucking idiot for buying your ZZR for a first bike? What were YOUR "RETARDED" answers and "BS" excuses?

What really kills me is WHO cleared these guys to buy the super sport bikes they ride on now? Who gets to decide when someone IS ready for a SS bike? What are the requirements? Who gets to set the standards? This guy?

:lala:

hey brutha, opinions are like assholes, everybody has 1 and they all stink.

:dthumb:

NAW... yeah I get ya... and honestly I didn't even read those long posts... it's been preached way too much... and honestly... like I said i could care less what you start on.


truth is... the advice is a very safe aproach trying to get people to realize what they're getting into... the problem is the advice generalizes... and you can't do that with motorcycles or people. every person is diffrent.

as for who asked... well no one yet... but go to any large froum and there's at least 3 or 4 new threads monthly if not weekly asking about what bike they should start on.

I think the author was just hope'n to type it once and blanket the majority of newbies... :idk:

Obama :whistle:

Of course you do,it's basically what you said but severally condensed down...

HA I knew it you :pwhore2:!!! Seriously,if you are VERY,VERY,VERY bored read it and tell me what you think. PM me if you don't want to upset your new BFF!!!:dthumb:

Oh and I think that the author just thought he found somewhere new to post his long winded dissertation on why he knows best and everyone else is stupid if they don't agree with him.

fyi, it's a copy and paste

but anyways as you can see there are more YAYs then Nays

but keep on keepin on

i'll keep teaching noobs and you keep talking to em.

Milkdud...oh wait that's the other thread....oops....


Yep,except some assholes pass A LOT more gas than others!

Why would you want a 600cc when you're just going to outgrow it in a month or two. A Busa or a ZX14 is the best starter bike because it'll take at least a year or two to outgrow, and by that time you can buy the new one. Or at least get a turbo on a gixxer thou.

:whistle::nee::rofl:

Now in YOUR case,I suggest a nice shiny 50cc scooter! Now don't hurt yourself sweetie!

Can I stunt on it yo? Can I do the mad fresh stoppies or pimp out some dope wheelies?

Um...the "yeas" never even read your entire post....trust me,I know these guys.

Oh and you can shit can the "I'm so much better than you because I teach MSF" attitude as well. Oh and I took MSF AND have assisted a few times back in the day. Whoopie Doo!!! You're like an elementary school basketball coach trying to take credit for Michael Jordan's NBA career. Yeesh...

Actually,some scooters do quite nice wheelies! I know a guy here who has custom painted his scooter and it even has NEON!!!!

:lol: tig... with 600+ post a day now I doubt I'll be getting bored enough to read all that...

but I'll make an effort tonight.

but like I said... I think it's the BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY standpoint... I think he knows not everyone is going to listen to him... but the ones that do... will "probably" be better off.

the thing is they have nothing to loose (other than some douchbags opinion of them) by starting small. but it's impossible to give general advice like that and have it apply to everyone.

I think they guy just assumed that we may have some new riders or wanna be's and is offering up some advice. knowing most won't take it.



Oh... and Racer-X... meet Tigger :lol:

Oh I know...Ya gotta admit,that was quite some fucking post to be one of your first posts on a new forum...I mean really. Self-important much? Seriously,I bet this motherfucker has posted this shit on EVERY motorcycle board he's ever been on!

yeah odd not to get a few post in here first... but... give him a break... Tigg... he's a noob here... doesn't realize just how much this sort of thing gets to you :lol:

It's just that this isn't a NOOB haven. Heck,I went back to :twf: and every other post is some noob asking questions. That is one of my favorite things about this board almost zero new riders! I mean if he would have taken the time to read some of the threads in this sub forum,he would have seen that this shit has been covered ad nauseum already and that there were almost no "what should I get for my first bike?" threads here.

Ok I'm taking deep breaths......alright cool...

Hey RacerX welcome to TWFix!:twfix:

:lol: it's nice to a point... but we want this place to grow... noobs are inevitable.

Once upon a time when the money flowed a little better than a slow drip, and I didn't treat my credit like a drunken prom date, I tried to haggle a local scooter place on the price of an ItalJet Dragster 180 that was sitting in their tiny showroom. I'll wager dollars to donuts that little monster would get up on a wheel with very little coaxing. But they can still eat shit on a $4K asking price for used product. Don't care how rare they are around these parts, back then it was (and still is) a used 600 or damn close to it.

4k!? fuck.... I got my 05 ZZR600 with 618 miles in Jan of 06 for 4999 OTD with an arai profile helmet included...

your ass is getting ripped off if you buy a scooter for 2K+ IMO

did anyone read all of that?
________
Vapolution
________
LovelyWendie99

very good analogy, and just like in bsaketball, if the basics aren't correct your not gonna be much of a player.

and you learn the basics of riding alot better on a beginner bike then an SS bike.

and yeah it's on every forum i visit, and stickied (by the mods for some strange reason, just like here) on every one, wonder why? vs your teachings of ????


so what kinda knowledge do you bring to the table besides your obvious wit and charm?

are you a new rider?

ADD's a bish huh, i have it too :sorry:

there are alot of scooters i'd like, most are over $2k

Aprilia SR50 Ditech Factory
Honda 250 Reflex , zuki bergman 400 ~$4k
Honda Silverwing zuki bergman 650 ~$7.5k

they all serve a purpose and all roll on 2 wheels

Blah... no thanks... I'd rather have a motorcycle... not saying I would take one if it was given to me... but not gonna pay that much for one.

but then again... I also wouldn't spend over $30k for any vehicle... and god knows enough people do. so what do I know :lol:

i'd like a lil of every kinda bike

nothing wrong w/ veh. over $30k if you can afford it

see.. to me... even if you can aford it... it's still fuck'n stupid. probably why I still drive my 87 pickup around. shit I'm have'n a hard enough time convincing myself to buy a new 09 600RR... 10g's FUCK.

enough whoring of this wonderful thead.........lol

:lol: we whore EVERY thread... it's TWFix motto...

Yeah and you can't learn the basics unless your parents buy you a Lil' Tykes basketball hoop set and then FORBID you to play on the big boy court... yea,you'll be ready for the NBA in no time like that!

Of course,they sticky it,I never said the advice was bad douche-nozzle,I said the presentation is too sanctimonious!!!

Oh little ol' me? I don't know much of anything about...what you call them again? Oh yea motorcycles.... nope,I just started riding day before yesterday...:whistle:

HEY! Didn't you read that wonderful,thoughtful and oh so well written post by his majesty? You shall not purchase any bike before he has cleared you for it's possession! You do not have enough riding experience to operate such a dick-missile,you are forbidden!!!!:panic:

Beat it into the fucking ground BABY!!! Whore it until ALL the holes bleed!!!

Jeez, Ed, at least attribute the original author (Matt Pickering). He wrote it for a site that was almost exclusively newbie riders, and it was pretty appropriate over there.

OMFG!!!!:zowned:

Tigg.. :lol: your back to your old form... take it easy on the guy...

I'm sorry! Someone pm'd me today and said I was "compassionate" and it just set me off!!!!:panic: Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!

That's just ed, being his charming self.

You'll get used to him, he grows on ya, like a fungus

Is his smiley here? I didn't see it on the list.

Yea we have one of those too...he thinks that NO ONE should ever be allowed to ride a motorcycle unless he's taken the MSF course!!! There is absolutely no other good way to learn how to ride!

nothing wrong with teachin noobs, even tho we are short on em...cept its another repost lol-actually a cut and paste repost, but whatevers

:lol: ahh.. understandable then... carry on

who? seriously... who?

I think they should make it a law that every driver and rider MUST take the MSF... increase rider awareness and help give people an understanding of the risks of being a motorcyclist... maybe it'll help people SEE me.

but asside from that... it teaches you panic and slow speed manuvering... something NONE of us practice... and often over look.

Ah ah ah,I do indeed practice slow speed maneuvering all the time. I make a game of it and try to balance at a complete stop. I still think that practicing stoppies helps you learn how to panic stop.....:whistle:

It does give you better feel with the breaks and more precise modulation of excessive stopping power without locking up the front wheel and really fucking yourself in a panic situation.

Alright first you play Patapon and now you agree with me on stoppies/panic braking.... you're my new best friend!!!:dthumb:

:dthumb:

man another good analogy, wouldn't the NBA's be like riding SS bikes? vs a beginner bike? i mean there's not alot faster on the roads, esp. for the $. so should a person start in NBA's or in the junior league's?

as for ever person taking the MSF, well it prolly would be a good idea, and who's to say there's not legistion being looked at that might go that direction, esp. w/ the new nanny director in charge.

if i remember you claimed to have been in the military, is that where you took MSF? cuz it's mandatory for all military riders, and sportbikes deaths have been so bad recently, that the military is now mandating sportbike riders (not cruiser riders) to take a 2nd class, still looking for details on that one.

fact 90% of motorcycle DEATHS (not injuries or crashes) are people who are self taught or taught by family and friends. crazy odds.

what are the odds that a young person on a SS person is gonna crash? ask your insurance agent what full coverage is, and get back to me.


as for starter bike, crazy how the most of the world, who taking biking more seriously have tiered licensing, where you have to start w/ a small cc bike as a begineer bike, vs. the wonderful USA where a then noob like yourself could get a beast like a VMAX (the rebuttal for " i made it " is in the contested post.

lucky for you my knowledge is 2x yours, i started riding the day before yesterday.







who were you on CF ?

correct me if i'm wrong, i posted this in the "new rider" section of this site?

thanks for the name, i'll edit my orig. post.

I was Akraybill over there. Fellow Texas MSF guy. Sorry, that second sentence was for everyone else here, explaining the original audience of the writeup. I get a little peeved when I see it posted around with no mention that someone else wrote it. :beers:

Yea,it's always fantastic when someone tries to take credit for someone else's work!

dare i mention the messiah TWICE in one thread? :whistle:

Ok here we go....


There HAVE been players to come in right out of high school or even off the street. Some players ARE good enough to skip the "junior leagues"



We'll see...



So you're saying that even though military people are mandated to take MSF,they are still crashing....interesting...



um...I'm wondering where you are getting your information...did someone hire a medium to interview these guys post mortem to ask them if they took MSF? Besides,most riders have never taken MSF courses and you know it and I doubt that all of these incidents could have been avoided had they just taken your 2 or 3 day class... BTW are you saying that 1 out of 20 people who take MSF are gonna die in a MC crash?:panic:



Shit! What are the odds that EVERYONE riding a SS bike is gonna crash? I don't know about YOUR forum but almost EVERYONE on this forum has crashed at least once!!!



Yea darn I wish I lived in a socialist country like France where bikes over 100hp aren't even ALLOWED!!! For the record,riders usually die when they have accidents with other motor vehicles and that,my friend,can happen regardless of the size of bike you are on!



Oh thank God that you are here to save me from my ignorance!!! :bowtome:


WHEW!

IMO SS bikes get inexperienced riders over their heads, before they realize it. Non Sports bikes tend to give lots of feedback as you go faster, my bike goes 100+ and it's not working hard.

It's like going to the beach while you're learning to swim, If the bottom slowly gets deeper it's not to bad, on the other hand you're definately not as safe if 30 feet from the shore in 3' of water the seafloor drops to 100'. You can suddenly find yourself in trouble, and not have the ingrained skills to get you out of it.

This is a common debate that people like to bring up that makes me laugh more and more as my experience increases.

Most new riders will have a crash. However, most of those crashes are not related at all to the displacement of their machine... this is just one of those topics that is 'en vogue' to bring up and more experienced riders like to talk about in a somewhat condescending fashion. I'll admit, I've spoken like that to people considering getting into riding.

The scenario is more that some people have the skills to start riding and do well right off the bat, some will do alright but have some trouble along the way, and some will never be good riders. That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

The bottom line is that it really is all dependent on the person. But, since new riders often come looking for advice and they are not yet known by the experienced riders giving said advice, I will admit that suggesting a slower/older/used bike is probably a good idea.

However, writing a 10 page diatribe about the intricacies of technique and why a ninja500 is the only option for a new rider is laughable at best.

By the way, I started riding a year and a half ago on my first bike, a brand new 06 r6. I think I've done alright... ;)

It's dependent on the person, but from what I've seen the majority of people are in that middle "will do alright but have trouble along the way" group. Having a bike that's really unforgiving of mistakes will stack the odds against them, and likely cause them to get into trouble when they might not have on a more forgiving bike. Add in the folks who would crash whatever bike they'd get on, and you don't have too many people left who would be just fine starting on an R6 (or whatever). And who can identify those folks over the internet?

I'd like to see some numbers that show that crashing has no relation to the displacement or type of bike. I'm not buying it.

I don't have numbers, but just think about it:

How do most newbies crash?

It's coming into a turn a little quicker than they're comfortable with and panicking, it's target fixation and running wide, it's have a stiff upper body and tucking the front, it's panic braking and locking up either tire, etc etc etc.

They are input/technique/mental errors that would occur on any bike.

It's not powering out of a turn and highsiding the fuck out of themselves, or doing a 150mph wheelie on a busa into a truck, or other power related errors. Those things DO happen, but just consider what most of the crashes newbs have are caused by.






But like you said (and I said previously), since it's hard to judge people by a few posts on the web, I suppose the start small advice is good advice. However the reasoning for it has never jived with me.

Also, I think the type of person who will do alright on a 600 isn't the type of person who will go on the internet looking for some positive reinforcement about their decision. I took my MSF, did a TON of research and reading, and went and bought my bike. End of story. It was a little while later that I joined some forums.

The thing is you'd have a hard time "proving" that displacement/type of bike was the sole cause the accident as well. I've seen people crash 250s and I've seen them crash 'Busas,for most it was panic that put them down and not cc's.

^Oh man, tigger and I are agreeing again.... this can't be good :lol:

:ty: That is basically what I was trying to say...coming into a corner at 75 instead of 60 is a mistake that can be made on some scooters. Most single vehicle crashes I've seen are these type.

Yea,first Obama is elected and now we are agreeing,can it be anything other than the end of days?!?!?!?!:panic:

I did the same... but part of that research was to ask fellow riders what they thought... no that a total stranger was going to change my opinion... but if the vast majority said "wrong move" then I'd have re thought my approach. but true... I wasn't in it for positive reinforcement... but just to honestly make sure I wasn't way off base.

Yeah, I get that it's hard to prove anything, and that most newbie wrecks aren't caused by sheer horsepower or anything like that. But I'd wager most newbie crashes are caused by:

1) Bad control input, which is made worse on a supersport bike that does exactly what you tell it, and does it RIGHT NOW. Overbraking and locking the front or hitting a bump and whacking open the throttle are more serious on a less friendly bike.

2) Bad judgment, made worse by a bike that'll let you get over your head before you even know it.

I'm not on the side that says "all must start small or die" but I sure don't agree that anyone can start on any bike and be just fine, as long as they "respect the bike." I've seen that posted way too many times to count, and it's crap. :chug:

I agree completely! respect has nothing to do with how you'll react when your in that OH SHIT moment.

Yeah that one cracks me up... I don't care what bike you're riding, ninja 250 or busa.... you don't need to 'respect' it, you need to know how to properly handle it.

You can respect the bike for all 300 feet of pavement your face is sliding on, doesn't matter.

I like how the author of the original article never even really owned a 600 before writing an essay about 600's and how they're not for beginners.......he just sold his 250 and is "currently shopping for" a 600/1000, and is "building" an old FZR-600 racebike in his garage. :lol:

His points are valid, but maybe a more credible source would be warranted. :lol:

True, but a 250 ninja is going to be giving lots more feedback to the rider that he's going fast at 70 mph than a 600SS will. That's what makes them safer.

I love ninja 250s. I can sell them to a newbie and make my cut from the sale and usually they are back within a couple of months to buy a 600 and then i can make my cut AGAIN from the same person. How could i not love a bike that repeatedly puts money in my pocket. Although customer satisfaction is a different story... :rockwoot:

Sell them a 1000 first...then after they wad it up, you can tell them that they prolly should have started on a 600. This way you make more$$$ then putting a 250 in their hands first.

You can thank me later...lol

I try to avoid that but most kids who walk in looking for a 1k,busa or zx14 have already made up their minds so they dont listen so i just end up giving it to them. I think its a great way of controlling the overpopulation crisis :lol

Ya gotta explain it in terms they'll understand, like HP to Weight ratio. (most people know that kinda stuff from drag racing and if they don't it's an easy enough concept for them to grasp w/ a little explanation.)

Ask them to name a really fast car.... Typically they'll name a car that weighs probably 2500 lbs and has about 500 hp or so..... If they don't pick something that sounds like that, pick a car for them that does :P

Then tell em that car, at 500hp and 2500lbs has roughly 5lbs per hp....

Then tell em that your average literbike puts out almost 200hp (at the crank.... makes more of an impact than RWHP) & weighs about 400lbs (without them on it, but don't tell them that ;)) which translates to only 2lbs per hp... More than twice as much hp per pound than their supercar and probably 10 times as difficult to control since it takes a completely different set of skills to operate.

Does that sound like something that's safe to learn on?

That usually puts things in perspective for them and it worked like a charm for me this past weekend when I had a kid in my MSF class tell me he wanted a CBR1k.... he's now looking at older used 600's or 650 twins.

The next day he said he walked into a dealership & the salesman tried talking him into a ZX14 even after he told him it would be his first bike... he said he won't be going back there anytime soon.

I think the Zx14 was on the manufacturer's "Hit List" for the month. Thats an extra $250 bucks on top of your regular commission so i can see why the salesman tried that which is understandable from a business perspective but i wouldnt do it. But then again i dont make a lot of money either so maybe i should start doing the same thing or start looking for a new job

How do these 18year old kids working at Autozone or Quick Lube afford these brand new litre bikes? When I was looking for my 1st bike it was a KLR650 dual sport and I found one for $4700 and I had $2000 cash to put down on it and they still wouldn't approve me at 23years old. But I never got a loan on anything at that point but neither have those 18-20year olds.

Only approval I got was for a brand new FZ6 with 21% interest (I laughed at that rate and walked out).

If you're only financing a few thousand, they're not making much money on interest.

Most times you're better off putting your downpayment, financing the item and then paying off a large chunk with whatever you have saved.

Mommy or daddy co-signs.

Always. Besides these days if you have anything less than a 700 or so beacon score you are getting approved for shit. Getting a loan for a powersport's product is much harder than getting a loan for a car.