How to hang off the bike

[ceo012384]

Another thing an instructor and very fast rider told me is that even the slightest bit of bar pressure mid turn not only decreases the bike's ability to stay settled and correct itself, but also increases the radius of your turn.

For example, if you are leaned over and still have pressure on the inside bar, the bike will continue to track more straight than if you let go of it. That's literally how important it is to reduce bar pressure; reducing bar pressure is what really allows the bike to hook into the turn and bite towards the apex.

It's also the reason why people are still completing their turn post-apex, when in reality all your turning should be done and you should be getting on the gas and standing the bike up, allowing the throttle to cause you to track out as you get to WOT and the bike is stood up.

I try to keep a feather's touch on my bars, holding the throttle where it is with a thumb and two fingers, and the other hand with barely a grip on the bars. I know I'm doing it right when I can feel the handlebars jiggling around inside my loosely gripping hands.

That being said, I'm not always good with this, and it's the hardest thing for me and many riders.


I've thought a lot about this stuff since getting this advice and can't wait to keep working on it.

Originally Posted by No Worries

Wait a second. When you are riding mountains or canyons, there is no time between curves to rotate hips, weigh your feet, or hug the tank.

There is just no time to think about the other things, let alone do them, in the short amount of time that curves change direction in a canyon.

There's plenty of time... ever ride NHMS?

And as far as think them... that's the point of practice, so it becomes automatic technique. Keith Code's $10 of attention, anyone?

Originally Posted by DLIT

Thanks, Kurt.

I like this thread.

with both. Thanks Zort. And I like when we actual talk motorcycle technique on here

[DLIT]

Originally Posted by ceo012384

Another thing an instructor and very fast rider told me is that even the slightest bit of bar pressure mid turn not only decreases the bike's ability to stay settled and correct itself, but also increases the radius of your turn.

For example, if you are leaned over and still have pressure on the inside bar, the bike will continue to track more straight than if you let go of it. That's literally how important it is to reduce bar pressure; reducing bar pressure is what really allows the bike to hook into the turn and bite towards the apex.

It's also the reason why people are still completing their turn post-apex, when in reality all your turning should be done and you should be getting on the gas and standing the bike up, allowing the throttle to cause you to track out as you get to WOT and the bike is stood up.

I try to keep a feather's touch on my bars, holding the throttle where it is with a thumb and two fingers, and the other hand with barely a grip on the bars. I know I'm doing it right when I can feel the handlebars jiggling around inside my loosely gripping hands.

That being said, I'm not always good with this, and it's the hardest thing for me and many riders.


I've thought a lot about this stuff since getting this advice and can't wait to keep working on it.

There's plenty of time... ever ride NHMS?

And as far as think them... that's the point of practice, so it becomes automatic technique. Keith Code's $10 of attention, anyone?

with both. Thanks Zort. And I like when we actual talk motorcycle technique on here

iF YOU WEIGHT THE INSIDE CLIP-ON, YOU'RE working against the suspension and ultimately pushing your bike outwards. It's all physics.

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by DLIT

iF YOU WEIGHT THE INSIDE CLIP-ON, YOU'RE working against the suspension and ultimately pushing your bike outwards. It's all physics.

Exactly... and it's something that you don't think about because the more you push it the FURTHER you are leaned over... so you can be at max lean but still have the bike tracking straighter than it could be.

You might think lean angle directly determines your cornering radius but there are other factors... apparently bar pressure is a biggun.

[DLIT]

What are you talking about when you say "tracking"?

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by DLIT

What are you talking about when you say "tracking"?

It's a term that's more used with cars than bikes, sorry about that.

It just means that's the direction in which it heads.

[DLIT]

Now I understand your previous statement...I think. You can be at max lean, but you won't be turning as much as you can be because your weighting the inside, which you would think just lean more and before you know it, you lowside. My avatar is at a point where I lean it just a bit more to finish off a decreasing radius turn. If I was weighting the bar too much, I could easily lowside or over-shoot the turn.

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by DLIT

Now I understand your previous statement...I think. You can be at max lean, but you won't be turning as much as you can be because your weighting the inside, which you would think just lean more and before you know it, you lowside. My avatar is at a point where I lean it just a bit more to finish off a decreasing radius turn. If I was weighting the bar too much, I could easily lowside or over-shoot the turn.

I think we're on the same page here. Basically for a given lean angle, the bike will turn tighter with no bar pressure than if you are pressuring the handlebar... this is counterintuitive to the common notion that lean angle and speed determine the cornering radius.

On top of that, the obvious problem is that handlebar pressure allows the front to wash easily if there are bumps/cracks.

[No Worries]

Originally Posted by ceo012384

There's plenty of time (to weigh pegs, etc.)... ever ride NHMS?

I haven't been on a racetrack since 1984. And the only time I was in New Hampshire was in 1975 or so for a Geology field camp.

But let me describe a turn, or actually multiple curves on my favorite road. It's a steep, two-lane road with no shoulders. The first curve is blind. It goes around a nose of the mountain. Surprise, it's also a decreasing radius. So you have to lean even more. The road is immediately in a small valley and turns in the opposite direction. Depending on your speed, you have between 1/2 and 1 second to lean the bike fully from one direction to the other.

Picture doing a tight figure-eight at maximum speed and lean. The transition from leaning fully from left to right, and vice-versa has to be done very quickly. Actually, the bike is still leaned over in the direction of the first curve, while the rider has to begin leaning in the opposite direction.

The Total Control class made us practice figure-eights, in both directions, while looking at each instructor in each center of the figure-eight. Only about 25mph, but it was tight. Once you master the figure-eight, mountain and canyon riding are much easier.

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by No Worries

I haven't been on a racetrack since 1984. And the only time I was in New Hampshire was in 1975 or so for a Geology field camp.

But let me describe a turn, or actually multiple curves on my favorite road. It's a steep, two-lane road with no shoulders. The first curve is blind. It goes around a nose of the mountain. Surprise, it's also a decreasing radius. So you have to lean even more. The road is immediately in a small valley and turns in the opposite direction. Depending on your speed, you have between 1/2 and 1 second to lean the bike fully from one direction to the other.

Picture doing a tight figure-eight at maximum speed and lean. The transition from leaning fully from left to right, and vice-versa has to be done very quickly. Actually, the bike is still leaned over in the direction of the first curve, while the rider has to begin leaning in the opposite direction.

The Total Control class made us practice figure-eights, in both directions, while looking at each instructor in each center of the figure-eight. Only about 25mph, but it was tight. Once you master the figure-eight, mountain and canyon riding are much easier.

After riding on a tight track like loudon, your body positioning becomes second nature and you can switch back and forth VERY quickly.

Also, I find that you can do things with the bike/controls to help to flip the bike and yourself over faster... for example start to decrease lean angle and use that to toss yourself over while you give the bike a little bit of gas, allowing your other side's countersteer to really snap the bike around. You can see me doing (not a great job at) that in the vid I posted in my last TD thread in the chicane of turn 12 which is right before the main straight.

[zortness]

Here's an image for some visual references relating to my earlier post. This is me coming up behind Danny in turn 7 at LVMS. Danny's not slow, he's running 1:28's at LVMS, which is pretty quick for a non-racer.

Here's what's going on in the picture: I'm coming up behind Danny. I actually passed him coming out of this corner. It's a double-apex corner decreasing radius corner, I'm just past the point where I use the most lean, so this is the exit half of the corner (I'm already off the brakes and on the gas). Danny's on a good line, but I'm carrying about 5mph more than him.

Here's what I see: Danny's hunting for the track with his knee, so instead of rotating around the tank, he's moving directly off to the left. This is forcing his upper body to stay more over the tank. It's also pushing his toes out further on his inside foot, which takes away some of his usable lean angle. His arms also look tense in this picture, to me anyway. Also, Danny's looking at the curbing, I'm looking at the next corner (a right hander that's not more than 200ft past this curb). My form is not perfect either, my head should be lower as I exit the corner.