Leaning versus Knee Down
 

I saw two examples of riding today. While riding some twisty roads, I saw a Harley tourer coming toward me that seemed like it was going too fast to make a turn. I slowed down expecting him to crash or run off the road. Then I saw something that was pretty rare. He leaned waaaayyyyy off the bike. And made the corner without scraping anything. He was barrel-chested, so he was putting a lot of weight to the inside of that curve. He had no helmet or leathers on, and was grinning from ear to ear as he accelerated by me. He must have had lessons.

While I was walking the dog this evening, a scooter rider came around a corner with his knee way out and almost hitting the ground. Except his scooter was weaving and scraping. I thought he had a flat tire. Then I looked up from his scooter and saw that his body was leaning the opposite way. His upper body was exactly perpendicular to the ground. Luckily for him there were no parked cars as he swung way out or he would have hit them. He needed lessons.

interesting, the second scenario sounds like 50ccs of mayhem....

I noticed a very similar thing today too. I went riding with my brother today, he has been "learning" from some folks he met at school. They have his upper body leaned way over while his ass doesn't move at all, he sort of bends over the top of his bike. Now I also know that my leaning position sucks, I slide my ass over to the side that I'm turning and my upper body only moves a few inches. Last time I did a track day the biggest piece of advice was to move my upper body over more (there were many more but I wont talk about them here).


My brothers body position (not actually him)
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pjnuske...MikeDoohan.jpg


My body position (also not actually me)
http://digilander.libero.it/tortugam...are-doohan.jpg

Mick Doohan is on of the exceptions.

The textbook body position is to lead with the upper body, like in the first shot.

Look at pics of Ben Spies. Except for his famous "Elbowz", he has near perfect body position.

I think I may have to dissagree with you, I have been tought that the ideal body position is to shift your weight to the side while keeping your spine in line with the centerline of the bike

http://www.bikesportnews.com/artimg/212-art.jpg

but this pic is showing a rider with BOTH his lower and upper body off the bike, like shmike was saying



agreed

I think the "right" body position varies a lot from person to person, however there are definitely more wrong positions than right ones.

The body position I was trying to describe for my bro was with his ass centered on the seat and his upper body hanging off

There is no ideal body position. The bottom line is you do what gets results in any given situation. There is no single magic pose that's the "right" way to ride a bike. The fact that guys like Doohan and Bayliss do what they do should end any debating.

Don't forget Mamola,yeesh talk about crazy body positioning.

Then we agree.

If you "shift" your weight with your hips, you'll end up crossed up, a la Doohan. If you lead with your head, it will pull your upper body inline with your pelvis when you shift.

Look at how Spies leads with his head and upper body, almost pointing his body like a spear:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/b...ies_MotoGP.jpg
http://www.moto-net.com/images/motog.../ben-spies.jpg

While not perfectly straight he is pretty damn close to being in line with the bike:

http://www.bikesportnews.com/artimg/1159-art.jpg

The other thing is pictures lie... the pic with Hayden,the bike is sideways with the tire spinning,you're not going to be in a "perfect body position" at this point. The other pics could be catching the rider in different transition positions as he is shifting his weight into or out of a corner. Not to mention,that in a snapshot you as the viewer are unaware of the upcoming situation,perhaps the rider is in a chicane and can't fully commit his body to the first corner. The only time you will even approach a text book body stance is in a "smooth" or text book corner situation.

Perhaps he learned to ride on an older cycle. Back in the early 80s when I was out screaming on my kawasaki triples, you didn't lean to scrap your knee. You put your ass on the inside of the seat so it would actually turn.

It's interesting how taking curves have changed due to the advancements in bike geometry. Having a bike that's similar to yours, I can see doing that, as opposed to taking half your butt off of the seat. I get better corner response by dropping my shoulder than doing anything with my butt or legs.

I'm in south FL...what is this "lean" thing you are talking about? :idk:

There are curves, they're called "on-ramps'!

that was a point i was going to make as well. Bike has alot to do with it. now a days, sports bikes are more consistent with their "tuned flex" so techniques can be more universal. case in point, those 2 pics of doohan, older bike vs new bike

here's where we went when we lived down there.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h8...ridatrack1.jpg

That makes baby Jesus cry.

This thread makes me smile... in the street section. :panic:

Kickin' it old skool?? Like this guy, raced AMA in the 80's - can you tell from the leathers??

By hanging off and shifting your weight into a turn you're able to go around a corner with less lean angle. There's tons of articles on this. Maybe you should pick up a copy of "a twist of the wrist".
http://www.atwistofthewrist.com/

The moped was probably counter weighing that thing. I think the ONLY time this would be useful is for real tight U-turns or just navigating thru a tight spot while going REAL SLOW...that's about it.

there was no houses there at the time. seems that someone tried to build a subdivision and lost backing or interest, don't know but there was no houses in the area. the only traffic was other people looking for a place to practice some corners and a few cops that would run you off once in a while. we never could find the place on Disney to ride.

Is that the place in Sebring?

no, south east of Haines City. if you have google earth I can send you the file that will locate it for you.

After some digging...I found it, thanks though.

Might have to take a trip up that way.

there are a few places that could be used for a "track" in that same area, think 3. there used to be an older woman that lived out there that would call the police so if you have after market exhaust you may not get much time before they show up. they are streets with signs and stop signs so they could ticket you but all they ever did was run us off.

From a physics point of view, there is no argument that the full hang-off position is superior.

However, every rider and bike is different... a position that makes you comfortable and able to be smooth and controlled in your inputs is the best for you.

Note that guys like Doohan and them were riding absolute BEASTS of a bike... big 500cc two strokes that they needed to wrestle around just to keep them going in the right direction. That is the cause for why in that age they all rode crossed up.

Nowadays, if you wanted to win motoGP races, you couldn't do it with that body position, the guys hanging off like Spies and Stoner and Rossi would be able to carry more corner speed than you.

Check out pics of Mat Mladin for an example of a modern (badass) racer whose style is pretty much crossed up.

Mladin has been around a while though too.

This is not necessarily true in real world application. There is much more to factor in beyond center of gravity of the bike/rider combination. You have to factor in traction, the section of track you're on, the chassis of the motorcycle and how it responds to input, sight limitations, control limitations, transition speed, and so on. The "ideal rider pose" only considers one small slice out of the big picture that ultimately determines lap time. Riders that try to force themselves into a preconceived pose are limiting themselves. Fast riders use their bodies in a limitless number of ways based on an equally limitless number of factors. If we agree that "superior" means the fastest lap time, then no, there is no such thing as a single superior body position, because they all have limitations. The faster rider will be the one that chooses his riding style based on the circumstances that exist from moment to moment. Staying as close to the limit as possible requires constant adaptation.

This is your current World Superbike champion, and he has also won in MotoGP.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u90flx.jpg

So yes, it is possible to ride at the highest levels of the sport with an unorthodox riding style.

If you watch Rossi, he does not hang off the bike much in most situations. His movements are very efficient and minimalist. Being arguably the greatest rider in history, it shows that a bunch of monkeying around on the bike is not necessary, and at times is detrimental to achieving the greatest results.

The twisty roads I ride on are much different than a track. Half the corners are blind, they are much sharper and steeper than a track, and there's no run-off. It's not prudent to go around a blind, mountain curve at full speed.

If there is sand in the corner, you have to stay in a tire track. Sure you can go faster if you cross over to the other track, but it's dangerous. Slow in and fast out.

I love to blast out of corners. It's a lot safer when you can see what's up ahead. Of course, throttle control is super important when leaned over. But if I am leaned way off the bike with my upper body, the bike itself is more leaned upright. That means I can get on the throttle sooner. It works for me. I've tested it hundreds of times. Both uphill and downhill.

Plus, there are several quick esses where I have a quarter second (or less) to lean from fully left to fully right and back again. I can move my upper body and head that fast. But I wouldn't be able to shift my butt around the seat, move my knee in on one side, move it out on the other, un-weigh a peg, or any of that stuff that can be done on a track. Anyway, most of these curves are to tight to be taken fast. And that's why I only move my upper body.

After replying to Zukimon's handlebar thread in the tech section, I figured out how I can move my upper body weight to either side of the bike so easily. My riding position is almost upright. I'm not laying on the gas tank like the racers. Or like the lay down position all the repli-racer sportbikes force their riders into. I always thought it was my wide handlebars that made it easy to toss my bikes around, but it's actually my upright riding position that makes it easy.

Oh yea Heli-Bars has always maintained that your bike handles better with their product installed.

I'd like to point out that different corners and surfaces require far different body position. A slow tight corner is far different than a fast sweeper. Toss in wet pavement or dirt and you'll get even more.

I used to think that leaning way off was faster in every corner till I got passed by some insainly fast supermoto bikes with the rider leaned way the wrong way and the bar nearly touching the ground. I did not understand how that worked till I rode on the ice this winter. It works well.

http://www.offroadparts.ch/media/ima...-supermoto.jpg

Works well.... on a LIGHT bike on LOOSE surfaces. It's a little easier to shift your weight & add a little body english to keep the bike up off the ground. Try that on a sportbike & you won't like the results ;)

knee out works well in point & shoot situations. Watching Jeff Wood battle Doug Henry before he was paralized was amazing.... Both would come into turn 3 at Loudon almost side-by-side....

Jeff would come in, back it in from 150 feet away from the Apex, put his knee down, round the corner & power out.

Doug would be foot out, also back it in from 150 feet out and could ALMOST out-break Jeff, nearly pull up along side him, point & shoot out.

Jeff would have slightly more mid-corner speed, Doug would have slightly more entry speed.



... Man what a friggin show... I hope & pray that Doug makes a full recovery & I can watch that again. A buddy of mine was in that race & they lapped him coming into that turn... one on one side of him, one on the other, both drifting sideways through the braking zone... My buddy soiled himself. :p

You do that on a sportbike at low speeds like in a parking and also 1st gear hair pins it works well. My point is that the surface,bike style and speed are a factor in body position and that there is no one correct answer.

For the record the first photos in this thread are both Mick D in different corners and different body positions.

If your sliding the bike its better to be on top of it than on the side of it.

I'm finding this thread to be very educational. Please keep up the good work! :)

Riding a dirt bike in dirt bike style is fine. But this guy is riding his dirt bike as if there was a berm there. There is no berm there, it's flat. And that folded-up peg looks like it's a millimeter from lifting the rear tire off the ground and losing traction.

Myself, I like traction, and I like to ride faster going out of a curve than I do going into it. I maintain traction by leaning way off the bike, and keeping the bike as upright as possible. This allows me to be as quick and as safe as possible. I kind of like that.

But I don't ride dirt bikes or race bikes, and I don't ride on dirt tracks or race tracks with the same dozen curves. I ride steep, tight, mountain roads with dozens of curves. I rode with sfarson on two of my favorite roads. There were at least 200 curves. He was unbelievably fast going up and scary-fast coming down. But he knows how to ride and lean.

Ha that suit is on clearance for $400!

hahahahahahahahhahahaha. there's one from right field.

Yea well this is like watching Keith Code,Reg Pridmore and Kevin Swantz battle out all over again...

For the record thats Mark Burkhart one of the fastest supermoto riders in the US. For you to say his riding style is wrong is way off base. Just cause his peg is on the ground does not mean he is near a high side, it just means his peg is draging.

Yeah where's that pic of xaus on a sumo? His peg has to be as close if not more so

Kevin Schwantz was a World Champion motorcycle road racer, but almost every time I watched him race, he crashed. If I was the owner of Core Supermoto Gear, wouldn't I want a picture of a rider about to crash?

Mr. Burkhart is showing perfect form of how to ride a dirt bike. If he had his dirt bike on dirt. It's completely wrong for riding on pavement. Although I did see a cruiser rider go around a corner with his foot skimming the pavement. And I've seen sparks coming off plenty of street bikes that didn't crash. But that don't mean it's good or right. Heck, I could push my centerstand down while going straight and cause sparks.

Putting road tires on a dirt bike is a great idea, but it's not new. In the mid-70's, there were a couple of two-stroke dirt bikes with street tires racing up and down Lookout Mountain. Illegal because they weren't licensed, they were quick going up, and super-fast coming down. Mostly because they were 250 pounds lighter than all the two-stroke street bikes, but they could also be leaned without scraping everything.

Anyone who rides a dirt bike or a streetbike on pavement should not ride it in a dirt-bike style. If I wanted a picture of a bike leaned way over, I would have the rider lean the wrong way. Like the cover shots on some British magazines, and advertisements for some gear.

If the goal of riding the motorcycle is to produce the greatest results, how can a riding style that produces those results be wrong? Additionally, trying to interpret what the rider is doing from a still photo doesn't provide enough information to determine what is even going on at that moment. We can't see the section of track, and we don't know the conditions or situation he's dealing with. All we know is that picture is freakin' awesome.

:lol you have no idea what you are talking about.

yeah.... all these guys are doing it incorrectly... tell us one more time about how you'd be faster than them on your 25 year old bike and how you're the king of lookout mountain... :rolleyes: aren't you a little old to be coming on the internet and bragging about your abilities all the time? That's for 12 year olds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9fa2L46b90

Yea,I've stated this fact too. A still pic doesn't tell you anything for certain because we don't have the context.

Also,the art of motorcycle control is an ever changing one. It wasn't that long ago that Kenny Roberts (my personal hero btw) was the(or one of the) first riders to start using his knee in corners. Everyone constantly gave Spies grief over his elbows and how his style is "incorrect"...3 American championships later...

Exactly. Learn the fundamentals/basics and adjust. I use my current style because I like where I am at because I can feel negative feedback and adjust. I've tried "kissing" my mirrors but that made me feel real vulnerable, in case I was to feel a tire slip or something. I move my upper and lower off but I don't put my head way down. I read many words on form and I've tried them all, but I just feel more comfortable with my own.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...5-17-08132.jpg

Honestly. Sick burn, pulling out a supermoto vid, haha.

Yea,I laughed my ass off when I read it! Good form,old chap! Like all really great zingers,there's an element of truth in it. If you pull all of No Worries posts,at least 25-50% mention riding on the mountain and/or being faster than "young guys on newer bikes":lol:

Well Jeff Ward and Mark Burkhart have no trouble at all beating badly Nicky Haydon and Danny Eslicks doing it your way. Your way on Supermotos is wrong.

For the record I do both when I ride supermoto. In the really crazy tight turns I ride foot out. In the crazy high speed sweepers I ride knee out. Again there is not one correct way that works in every corner both styles have there place that they are faster and safer.

Oh and in the photo I posted Mark Burkhart was turning not crashing.

Wow. I had to double check to see if this was the street section and not the track or dirt section. Emulating racers on the street can lead to trouble. There are riders on this forum who don’t use the rear brake, just because some road racer was shown braking with the rear wheel off the ground. Using the rear brake tightens your line, and pulls you to the inside of the corner.

What can I say about Lookout Mountain? It's a great place to practice every aspect of street riding. There are six switchbacks; 12 if you go up and down. Half of the 50 corners are blind. Anyone who rides it like a racetrack is crazy. You don’t need the latest and greatest sportbike, dirt bike, or supermoto to ride it fast. My 30-year-old bike does just fine.

Drewpy and OSP almost made it to Lookout Mountain, but you know the story. The only Fixer that I’ve ridden with is sfarson. Earlier in this thread I said how fast he is. I rode with him when I was leading, but when he led, he was gone. That’s when he was on his BMW. Forget about his Ducati. And sfarson is no youngster either.

I’ve only seen two of those supermoto-type bikes on Lookout Mountain, and both riders were hanging off in normal road bike style. I’ll admit that I could never get comfortable sliding a dirt bike with slicks on pavement like the professionals. I probably wet my leathers every time a tire slips out on my own bike.

I’ve seen several supermoto bikes on the street. Were they sliding around corners dirt-bike style? No. They were riding the same way most of the dual-sport riders ride. Pulling wheelies. Does HRCNICK11 ride his supermoto on the street? If so, how do you ride it around corners?

I ride the DRZ on the street and it slides very nice. I have ridden both ways depending on the road. The tighter the corner the more likely I am to ride foot out. The crappier the surface the more likely to ride foot out. Large sweepers like a on ramp knee out. Again I let the road and conditions dictate the style of riding I do. But be sure that I do like to slide the bike around the tight stuff.

Shit for that matter I've been known to slide the SV650 foot out on some slower corners. I also loved to power the RC51 rear end around on the exit of street corners. I don't recomend it for a noviced but my friends love the show when they ride with me.

This thread turned funny.

Careful.... same physics, same pavement, regardless of location.

I use the exact same cornering techniques on the track as I do on the street... and my foot is as far away as possible from the rear brake lever when i'm mid-corner. Not only is it far more risky to use the rear brake mid-corner, but you also have far more control with the front.

Think about it this way.... Would you rather lock up the rear mid corner and highside or the front and lowside?

I'll take a lowside over a highside anyday.



Now if you're talking about straight line emergency braking, that's totally different. Now we're back at the basics, which dictate that both brakes applied simultaneously will give you maximum braking power AND as the weight transitions to the front, the traction available at the rear tire reduces dramatically.

That's not why we advise not using the rear brake. We advise not using it because it can be very difficult for a newbie to control rear braking and is one of the more common mistakes that lead to mountain crashes. This is following your whole "margin of error" philsophy. If you have become skilled in braking, sure be my guest to use rear braking all you want to break the backend loose. You keep going on and on about not riding street full out and leaving a margin of error, but IF you are doing such riding in that type of responsible manner, you don't need the rear brake on a modern sportbike, that is a hell of a lot lighter than your older one, to make an effective pass on the street and leaving a very common mistake out of your riding as you learn.

"The purpose of the brakes is to adjust and correct the speed of the motorcycle downward, controlling deceleration. Most riders have the idea that brakes are some kind of on/off switch. This isn't true." Keith Code-A Twist of the Wrist, page 62.

I can go up Lookout Mountain using the brakes for only a few turns. Coming down, it is so steep I have to use them on almost every turn. I put them on smoothly before the turn. On the switchbacks, which are basically U-turns, I put on both my brakes before the turn and keep them on through most of the curve. I usually keep the same pressure on them throughout the turn, but if I have to stop quickly, I just squeeze and press harder.

"Applying both brakes simultaneously will help stabilize the chassis and keep it from pitching forward too quickly." Lee Parks- Total Control, page 73.

Anybody remember the "Anti-dive systems" that the manufacturers used on the front forks in the early 1980's? Anybody ride a bike with linked brakes (where the front and rear brakes are applied with the front lever) to give some feedback on this?

Here's what Sport Rider magazine says about using the rear brake:http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_0...lls/index.html

I don't know fellas,I think he has you here. I was taught to always use both brakes and I do.

And how may I ask do books automatically teach noobs how to properly use the rear brake? Sure if you are on an open track, trying to learn how to use a rear brake is a good idea. If you are on the side of a mountain, learning to use a rear brake isn't such a good idea because no one really wants to find out how a high side feels off a 80 foot cliff. Thank god for Lee Parks though, he really made me hurt less by reading his book.

I watched the Valentino tip video, now I am ready to go out and slide the rear around and win moto gp championships. YEY!!!!!

I'm nobody special, but put me down in the "I hate rear brakes" category. They aren't useful for straight line stopping if you use the front to its potential, my 600 didn't wheelie enough to need it for keeping the front end down, I trail brake only with the front, and I use the front when I run off track. The only place I give anything up by not using it is in the rain, where braking enough to unweight the rear is not possible. In that case, maximum braking is achieved by using both brakes together. By not using it in the dry, I never developed any control over it, so I just stayed off of it in the rain, too.

From an article about the Schwantz race school:

Some of his preferences come into play in the course syllabus. Like his personal dislike of the rear brake, the use of which he discourages despite the fact that several of the world's top motorcycle racers currently use rear braking to rotate the bike in corners. "I tried using the rear brake twice in my racing career", he explains. "And both times I found myself on the ground".

Truth.

Exhibit A:

Mike "The Bike" Hailwood- One of the faster motherfuckers of all time. Known for not leaning much, or dragging a knee.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/k...lwood_1967.jpg

JC