Republican says something stupid...

[goof2]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

Or this one:

Guess it's a good thing the republicans have already pledged to not "let their campaign be dictated by fact-checkers."

What's the problem with that? The Obama campaign has been calling Romney a liar for months. Two weeks ago they said Romney's "campaign is built on a tripod of lies". They also gave a nice choice a few months back that Romney was either a liar or a felon. Fact is both candidates are dishonest when it suits them and each calls out the other's dishonesty when they believe it to be to their benefit.

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by goof2

What's the problem with that? ... Fact is both candidates are dishonest when it suits them and each calls out the other's dishonesty when they believe it to be to their benefit.

I would agree with you and leave it at that in most cases. But in this case, Paul Ryan gave a speech at the RNC that was counter to actual fact checking at every other word, and the republican response was essentially "Yeah, so?" In this case, Mitt Romney has completely "re-invented" himself from "moderate conservative" (most in the republican party these days would have called him a "vile baby-killing liberal," just a few short years back) to staunch far-right pro-life anti-universal-healthcare defender-of-all-that-is-Reagan. In this case, the republicans aren't even trying to hide their lies.

As a semi-self-respecting American voter, I expect a little reach around. At least try to pretend you're not lying to my face.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

I would agree with you and leave it at that in most cases. But in this case, Paul Ryan gave a speech at the RNC that was counter to actual fact checking at every other word, and the republican response was essentially "Yeah, so?" In this case, Mitt Romney has completely "re-invented" himself from "moderate conservative" (most in the republican party these days would have called him a "vile baby-killing liberal," just a few short years back) to staunch far-right pro-life anti-universal-healthcare defender-of-all-that-is-Reagan. In this case, the republicans aren't even trying to hide their lies.

As a semi-self-respecting American voter, I expect a little reach around. At least try to pretend you're not lying to my face.

The response to the Ryan fact checking was "Yeah, so?" and they have generally decided to not "let their campaign be dictated by fact-checkers" because at least some of the fact checking has been bullshit. We can use the Janesville auto plant as an example because it was widely reported as a Ryan lie.

In his speech Ryan said:

"President Barack Obama came to office during an economic crisis, as he has reminded us a time or two. Those were very tough days, and any fair measure of his record has to take that into account. My home state voted for President Obama. When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it, especially in Janesville, where we were about to lose a major factory.

A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: “I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.” That’s what he said in 2008.

Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day. And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight."

Where is the lie, one so blatant the media had a conniption about it for a week or so?

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by goof2

Where is the lie, one so blatant the media had a conniption about it for a week or so?

I suppose some of the media had a week long conniption about as much as Fox News had a week of republican solidarity. All that crap evens out in the wash, at this point.

But the lie, in that one instance, is in the implied blame on President Obama for the closing of the GM plant. The plant actually closed while President Bush was still in office. But somehow, President Obama is to blame not only for the plant closing, but for it not opening its doors again? And yes, that blame was placed squarely at the president's feet, otherwise Ryan wouldn't have mentioned them both in the same breath.

Sure, they both play those games. And sure, President Obama has softened some positions and outright changed some others, but he hasn't completely redefined himself almost to the point of speciation the way Romney has. And like I said, while the democrats are most certainly lying to us, they aren't reveling in it the way the republicans seem to lately.

Minute as that distinction may be, it's all I have to distinguish the two since they seem to share common goals these days. Ask Governor Mitt Romney of Massachussetts...

[Smittie61984]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

But the lie, in that one instance, is in the implied blame on President Obama for the closing of the GM plant. The plant actually closed while President Bush was still in office....

The plant closed in April of 2009. I may be no calendar scholar but I'm pretty sure January of 2009 comes before April of 2009.

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by Smittie61984

The plant closed in April of 2009. I may be no calendar scholar but I'm pretty sure January of 2009 comes before April of 2009.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee...9/daily16.html

GM’s Janesville assembly plant closed Dec. 23, putting the plant's remaining 1,200 workers out of a job.

Here's a chance to brush up on your calendar scholarliness:

If an article is written on December 29, 2008, and references a plant closing on December 23 in the past tense, what is the latest year to which that article can be referring?

There is no need to re-write the question in your answer.

"Oh, but 50 people stuck around until April to crank out a few Izuzu parts and decommission the plant! It's clearly Obama's fault!"

Bullshit.

[Smittie61984]

O

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee...9/daily16.html

Here's a chance to brush up on your calendar scholarliness:

If an article is written on December 29, 2008, and references a plant closing on December 23 in the past tense, what is the latest year to which that article can be referring?

There is no need to re-write the question in your answer.

"Oh, but 50 people stuck around until April to crank out a few Izuzu parts and decommission the plant! It's clearly Obama's fault!"

Bullshit.

Fair enough, though they were still running and President Obama could of done something to bring it back. Not that it's the President's job to do that but if he said he'd promise then he should at least try. That asshole can funnel money into Chicago to repave roads that were just repaved (and tolled to death) you'd think he could try and do shit for them. Then again he put out a lot of promises.

Personally I say fuck those UAW assholes, I hope every single one of them starved their fat asses to near-death for the bullshit they turned out that cost me tons of money to fix because they put out absolute and complete shit. I'll never own an American company car again. I'll only buy Japanese company cars which are usually built in America but without Union assholes fucking everything up. My Honda sportbike can go 50k miles of bad oil changes and abuse but my old Chevy made POS needs repair more than it needed an oil change.

And also after having to work with those fucking pricks, my biggest regret is not grabbing a lawn chair with a 12 pack of imported beer, to camp out at the GM plant in Atlanta when it closed and watch those mentally retarded fucks walk out knowing they are too stupid to ever get another job above ditch digger, much less a $50-$100 an hour job, then laugh at them.

[goof2]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

I suppose some of the media had a week long conniption about as much as Fox News had a week of republican solidarity. All that crap evens out in the wash, at this point.

But the lie, in that one instance, is in the implied blame on President Obama for the closing of the GM plant. The plant actually closed while President Bush was still in office. But somehow, President Obama is to blame not only for the plant closing, but for it not opening its doors again? And yes, that blame was placed squarely at the president's feet, otherwise Ryan wouldn't have mentioned them both in the same breath.

Sure, they both play those games. And sure, President Obama has softened some positions and outright changed some others, but he hasn't completely redefined himself almost to the point of speciation the way Romney has. And like I said, while the democrats are most certainly lying to us, they aren't reveling in it the way the republicans seem to lately.

Minute as that distinction may be, it's all I have to distinguish the two since they seem to share common goals these days. Ask Governor Mitt Romney of Massachussetts...

I don't think Ryan was blaming Obama for the plant closing no matter what the date was. What I believe he was blaming Obama for was making promises on the campaign trail to get elected he couldn't keep when he became President.

Unlike what you believe Ryan implied, he actually explicitly stated in his speech that the factory was already headed toward closure when candidate Obama visited. During his visit Obama stated his belief that the government could save that factory. Then Ryan explicitly stated (again, didn't imply) "And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight." Ryan isn't blaming Obama for closing the factory, he is blaming Obama for making promises he couldn't keep.

Either way we have entered the realm of mind reading, not facts. The facts are a factory was closing, Obama came in and said he believed the government could save the factory, the factory closed. Which one of those facts is a lie?

[fatbuckRTO]

Originally Posted by goof2

I don't think Ryan was blaming Obama for the plant closing no matter what the date was. What I believe he was blaming Obama for was making promises on the campaign trail to get elected he couldn't keep when he became President.

But Adair tells us — and PolitiFact's post makes clear — that Ryan got the "false" rating not only because of what he said Wednesday night but for what he said at a campaign rally on Aug. 16: "I remember President Obama visiting it when he was first running, saying he'll keep that plant open. One more broken promise."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...mise-the-facts

Either way we have entered the realm of mind reading, not facts. The facts are a factory was closing, Obama came in and said he believed the government could save the factory, the factory closed. Which one of those facts is a lie?

Neither. A belief is not a promise. And no matter how hard a candidate believes something, until he's actually president he's not going to be able to use the authority of the president's office.

Originally Posted by President Obama at Janesville

"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your president."

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...gm-plant-open/

[goof2]

Originally Posted by fatbuckRTO

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolit...mise-the-facts

Neither. A belief is not a promise. And no matter how hard a candidate believes something, until he's actually president he's not going to be able to use the authority of the president's office.



http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...gm-plant-open/

So rather than fact check the actual statement Ryan used at the RNC Politifact instead fact checked a statement Ryan made in a speech 2 weeks before, declared that a lie, then painted the RNC statement with the same brush despite the language at issue having been removed.

By your claim above (RNC speech didn't call it a promise), which is different from the claim you made in your earlier post, was Ryan's RNC statement a lie?