Go buy an MV Agusta now....

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Originally Posted by Cutty72

Actually, that's backwards. Many of GM's current offerings are rebadged Opel's.



Serious? I'm game.

You're refering to the fact that alot of Gm's sedans share the same platform right? Um,the Pontiac G6, Opel Vectra (sp?),Malibu Maxx (which I mentioned earlier), Saab 9-3,etc. Having the same platform doesn't make them the same car but anyway,you're kinda making my point. Gm isn't taking great cars and making them "better,higher quality".They are buying an established make with a strong following and making it a GM product with a foreign maker's name on it. Which is what some people are afraid HD is going to do with MV. You see,the Saabs,Opels,etc that you see now aren't Saabs,Opels,etc. They are Malibus and Saturns with another brand's name on them. Oh and Saturns were modified Opels initially but now they are almost one and the same model for model.Are we ready for a Cagiva or Mv that is really a Buell Lighting with different badging?

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Oh and here is the coolest car Opel has out,look familiar? Man,I still love it!

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Sorry Opel fan here! My first three cars were a Opel Manta,Opel Manta GT and a Alfa Romero Alfasud V4. Oh and Opel has been a part of GM since 1929 but began production in 1899... So it's kinda silly to say that GM is making Opel cars. That would be like saying GM is making re-badged Pontiacs.

[Cutty72]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

You're refering to the fact that alot of Gm's sedans share the same platform right? Um,the Pontiac G6, Opel Vectra (sp?),Malibu Maxx (which I mentioned earlier), Saab 9-3,etc. Having the same platform doesn't make them the same car but anyway,you're kinda making my point. Gm isn't taking great cars and making them "better,higher quality".They are buying an established make with a strong following and making it a GM product with a foreign maker's name on it. Which is what some people are afraid HD is going to do with MV. You see,the Saabs,Opels,etc that you see now aren't Saabs,Opels,etc. They are Malibus and Saturns with another brand's name on them. Oh and Saturns were modified Opels initially but now they are almost one and the same model for model.Are we ready for a Cagiva or Mv that is really a Buell Lighting with different badging?

The Saturn line is mostly what i was talking about.

The new Astra is an Opel... still has all the euro shit on it, turn signals, radio etc.
I belive the Vue is an Opel as well...

Aura still an "american" made car.

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Originally Posted by Cutty72

The Saturn line is mostly what i was talking about.

The new Astra is an Opel... still has all the euro shit on it, turn signals, radio etc.
I belive the Vue is an Opel as well...

Aura still an "american" made car.

Nope you're right except the Aura is also an Opel (Vectra,I think) but they also share the platform with the G6,Saab and Malibu. Is the Saturn a re-badged Opel which is a re-badged Malibu? Are we gonna end up with MVs that are really re-badged Buells, Buells that are really re-badged MVs,both,neither? Who knows? Oh and I'm on five sportbike forums and at least one person per forum is convinced that this buyout will make MVs more affordable....exactly when did HD start making motorcycling affordable? Now if that Chinese company that bought Benelli had bought MV then you might have something there... Even if HD decided to make MVs more affordable,they couldn't do it with "buying power". If they go to MV's existing vendors and say,we need the normal number of widgits,the vendor is gonna sell them at the normal price no matter who shows up to buy.

For example,let's say that MVs come with Blackstone rims (my fav!) and MV still only produces 5000 bikes for a total sale of 10,000 rims. Just because it's HD at the door doesn't mean that BST is gonna cut them a better deal does it? Now,if HD knocks on the door and says give us 50,000 rims because we are gonna start using them on Buells then sure they can get a better price. Unfortunately,we all know that most likely HD will stop buying expensive and beautiful BST and start putting Chinese made Enkeis on the MV. MV uses expensive Brembo premium brake components on their bikes now and Buell uses Nissin (I believe),which do you think will happen,Buell gets Brembo or MV gets Nissin? Ohlins vs whatever is on the Buells,etc. I'm saying that IF HD wants to bring the price down on MVs,serious component downgrades will be necessary. You will never be able to buy a 312 for $11,399....

[Dnyce]

harleys have alota gd shit internally. externally, it looks the same, bcuz thats what their main consumer wants. the vrod is forward thinkin in harley terms, but ALOT of diehard harley guys hated it when it came out. "wtf? a radiator? get that jap crap outta here!" took em awhile to warm up to it.

i think itll make the buells better(especially in the sales dept), and mv will probably remain unchanged. maybe alil less overall bikes produced, makin them alil rarer, but its not gonna be like when amf bought harley

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Nope you're right except the Aura is also an Opel (Vectra,I think) but they also share the platform with the G6,Saab and Malibu. Is the Saturn a re-badged Opel which is a re-badged Malibu? Are we gonna end up with MVs that are really re-badged Buells, Buells that are really re-badged MVs,both,neither? Who knows? Oh and I'm on five sportbike forums and at least one person per forum is convinced that this buyout will make MVs more affordable....exactly when did HD start making motorcycling affordable? Now if that Chinese company that bought Benelli had bought MV then you might have something there... Even if HD decided to make MVs more affordable,they couldn't do it with "buying power". If they go to MV's existing vendors and say,we need the normal number of widgits,the vendor is gonna sell them at the normal price no matter who shows up to buy.

For example,let's say that MVs come with Blackstone rims (my fav!) and MV still only produces 5000 bikes for a total sale of 10,000 rims. Just because it's HD at the door doesn't mean that BST is gonna cut them a better deal does it? Now,if HD knocks on the door and says give us 50,000 rims because we are gonna start using them on Buells then sure they can get a better price. Unfortunately,we all know that most likely HD will stop buying expensive and beautiful BST and start putting Chinese made Enkeis on the MV. MV uses expensive Brembo premium brake components on their bikes now and Buell uses Nissin (I believe),which do you think will happen,Buell gets Brembo or MV gets Nissin? Ohlins vs whatever is on the Buells,etc. I'm saying that IF HD wants to bring the price down on MVs,serious component downgrades will be necessary. You will never be able to buy a 312 for $11,399....

What HD is good at doing is reducing costs through volume. When negotiation with shipping companies, you can get them to give you a better volume price when they are shipping 500,000 units, so you get a better price for the 10,000 or so MV's you ship. When looking at fasteners, there is a homogenization of fasteners that can reduce the number of specialized fasteners and the use of common fasteners. You can then reduce the cost per common fastener. There are reductions in frame manufacturing by common sourcing frames. Once the frame design has been completed by the engineers, is there anything unique about how MV welds their frames vs. Buell vs. Harley? Plastic and carbon fiber body panels can be common sourced providing discounts. Tires can be common sourced for discounts. 10,000 tires doesn't provide the same discount that 500,000 tires would. Electrical components can be common sourced providing discounts. HD would also be able to supply engineering and technical support that can help reduce the costs of R&D for MV. CAD and CAM resources could be shared between the companies rather than keeping them separate. Raw materials sourcing can also be shared. How much could be saved for MV by getting a discount on aluminum, titanium, and magnesium for engine casting and component machining. When you purchase aluminum for 500,000 bikes, you can get a discount for that material that you couldn't get for 10,000. Machining tools can also be bought with volume discounts.

I don't know that any of this will make that much of a difference, but it could. The question is whether HD will chose to pass any of these discounts down to us domestically. They could chose to keep the price high in order to keep it a high end marque and simply pocket the cost savings as profit. Conversely, how many more bikes could MV sell with equal per bike profit were the savings passed on to the buying public? What if they could reduce the price by 15-20% due to cost savings and this resulted in 50% more bikes sold?

None of these savings would necessarily cause a cheapening of MV bikes from a quality stand point. They would only need to gain enough of a discount to make a difference. This is what HD is very good at doing.


We'll see what happens. They may simply treat MV as a separate entity and provide it with absolutely no savings in common sourcing. I kinda doubt it, but it could happen.

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Which means they're straight from Rotax? Btw don't get me wrong,I applaud HD for realizing that they'll never produce a viable sportbike engine in-house and going to someone who could. I just think that the heart and soul of a motorcycle is the engine and if that isn't yours then the bike really isn't either. Basically,you're a "bike assembler",like OCC, at that point in my narrow-minded book.

To be honest,it really doesn't matter to me what happens with this buyout. I'll probably never own a MV,HD or Buell. I'll never be able to justify the price tags of either the MV or HD and Buell's stying has never been to my taste. I keep dreaming that Polaris/Victory will come out with a "American" sportbike or that Moto-Czysz and/or Fischer can somehow produce a viable sportbike for around the same money as the Japanese.

There is less than a 2% part similarity between any Buell model and and HD model. Mostly fasteners. The cams would only transition between pushrod air/oil-cooled engines.

The similarity between the 1125R and the XB line is probably like 10-15% parts similarity with most of those being fasteners, wheels, brake, and body components.

My understanding is that after 2010, the air/oil-cooled XB line will be no more. At that point Buell will have as much to with HD as MV will. MV and Buell will become much more similar. Perimeter brake MV? Dual rotor Brembo Buell? Trellis frame Buell? Fuel in frame MV?

What a cool parts bin it will be between MV and Buell. I can't wait to see what beast comes out of that marriage.

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Ummm...Neither HD nor Buell manufacture the frames for Buell,nor the rims,nor the motors,nor the plastics,nor the brakes,nor the electronic components,etc,etc,etc. I thought you owned a Buell. How can HD's "buying power" of raw materials affect the price of a bike when they outsource most of the components? Your proposal COULD make some sense if,as I said,HD got their existing vendors to start making parts for MVs. What you are failing to understand is that most(if any) of the components aren't made by HD, Buell, or MV but by outside vendors. Heck,the motor that is provided by Rotax for the 1125 is ASSEMBLED by Rotax from components sourced from factories from all over the world. Haven't you ever worked in a factory? No company that sells anything of any complicity produces all of the components in house. If MV buys their pistons from factory "A" and HD buys their pistons from factory "B",HD's "buying power" at factory "B" will have no effect on the price they pay for a piston at factory "A". The only way volume could affect the price of MV's pistons is if HD starts having MV's pistons made at factory "A". Btw don't MVs come with Pirelli tires? Are you suggesting that they start putting Dunlops on them so they can get in on HD's volume discount? I've toured the HD factory years ago,guess what? They don't manufacture much of ANYTHING,they assemble parts from various vendors to produce motorcycles that are "assembled in America". You're talking like blocks of steel,aluminum,plastic,etc go in one side of HD's factory and motorcycles come out the other side!

[pickle.of.doom]

Don't confuse HD and Buell.


HD's do have high tech shit on them, but only if its somewhere the customer won't see it. Things like carbs, brakes, pipes, have to remain 1950's tech or the customer base will start bitching...

[marko138]

Tigger, could you try not writing a book every time you post.