Go buy an MV Agusta now....

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by Cutty72

The Saturn line is mostly what i was talking about.

The new Astra is an Opel... still has all the euro shit on it, turn signals, radio etc.
I belive the Vue is an Opel as well...

Aura still an "american" made car.

Nope you're right except the Aura is also an Opel (Vectra,I think) but they also share the platform with the G6,Saab and Malibu. Is the Saturn a re-badged Opel which is a re-badged Malibu? Are we gonna end up with MVs that are really re-badged Buells, Buells that are really re-badged MVs,both,neither? Who knows? Oh and I'm on five sportbike forums and at least one person per forum is convinced that this buyout will make MVs more affordable....exactly when did HD start making motorcycling affordable? Now if that Chinese company that bought Benelli had bought MV then you might have something there... Even if HD decided to make MVs more affordable,they couldn't do it with "buying power". If they go to MV's existing vendors and say,we need the normal number of widgits,the vendor is gonna sell them at the normal price no matter who shows up to buy.

For example,let's say that MVs come with Blackstone rims (my fav!) and MV still only produces 5000 bikes for a total sale of 10,000 rims. Just because it's HD at the door doesn't mean that BST is gonna cut them a better deal does it? Now,if HD knocks on the door and says give us 50,000 rims because we are gonna start using them on Buells then sure they can get a better price. Unfortunately,we all know that most likely HD will stop buying expensive and beautiful BST and start putting Chinese made Enkeis on the MV. MV uses expensive Brembo premium brake components on their bikes now and Buell uses Nissin (I believe),which do you think will happen,Buell gets Brembo or MV gets Nissin? Ohlins vs whatever is on the Buells,etc. I'm saying that IF HD wants to bring the price down on MVs,serious component downgrades will be necessary. You will never be able to buy a 312 for $11,399....

[Dnyce]

harleys have alota gd shit internally. externally, it looks the same, bcuz thats what their main consumer wants. the vrod is forward thinkin in harley terms, but ALOT of diehard harley guys hated it when it came out. "wtf? a radiator? get that jap crap outta here!" took em awhile to warm up to it.

i think itll make the buells better(especially in the sales dept), and mv will probably remain unchanged. maybe alil less overall bikes produced, makin them alil rarer, but its not gonna be like when amf bought harley

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Nope you're right except the Aura is also an Opel (Vectra,I think) but they also share the platform with the G6,Saab and Malibu. Is the Saturn a re-badged Opel which is a re-badged Malibu? Are we gonna end up with MVs that are really re-badged Buells, Buells that are really re-badged MVs,both,neither? Who knows? Oh and I'm on five sportbike forums and at least one person per forum is convinced that this buyout will make MVs more affordable....exactly when did HD start making motorcycling affordable? Now if that Chinese company that bought Benelli had bought MV then you might have something there... Even if HD decided to make MVs more affordable,they couldn't do it with "buying power". If they go to MV's existing vendors and say,we need the normal number of widgits,the vendor is gonna sell them at the normal price no matter who shows up to buy.

For example,let's say that MVs come with Blackstone rims (my fav!) and MV still only produces 5000 bikes for a total sale of 10,000 rims. Just because it's HD at the door doesn't mean that BST is gonna cut them a better deal does it? Now,if HD knocks on the door and says give us 50,000 rims because we are gonna start using them on Buells then sure they can get a better price. Unfortunately,we all know that most likely HD will stop buying expensive and beautiful BST and start putting Chinese made Enkeis on the MV. MV uses expensive Brembo premium brake components on their bikes now and Buell uses Nissin (I believe),which do you think will happen,Buell gets Brembo or MV gets Nissin? Ohlins vs whatever is on the Buells,etc. I'm saying that IF HD wants to bring the price down on MVs,serious component downgrades will be necessary. You will never be able to buy a 312 for $11,399....

What HD is good at doing is reducing costs through volume. When negotiation with shipping companies, you can get them to give you a better volume price when they are shipping 500,000 units, so you get a better price for the 10,000 or so MV's you ship. When looking at fasteners, there is a homogenization of fasteners that can reduce the number of specialized fasteners and the use of common fasteners. You can then reduce the cost per common fastener. There are reductions in frame manufacturing by common sourcing frames. Once the frame design has been completed by the engineers, is there anything unique about how MV welds their frames vs. Buell vs. Harley? Plastic and carbon fiber body panels can be common sourced providing discounts. Tires can be common sourced for discounts. 10,000 tires doesn't provide the same discount that 500,000 tires would. Electrical components can be common sourced providing discounts. HD would also be able to supply engineering and technical support that can help reduce the costs of R&D for MV. CAD and CAM resources could be shared between the companies rather than keeping them separate. Raw materials sourcing can also be shared. How much could be saved for MV by getting a discount on aluminum, titanium, and magnesium for engine casting and component machining. When you purchase aluminum for 500,000 bikes, you can get a discount for that material that you couldn't get for 10,000. Machining tools can also be bought with volume discounts.

I don't know that any of this will make that much of a difference, but it could. The question is whether HD will chose to pass any of these discounts down to us domestically. They could chose to keep the price high in order to keep it a high end marque and simply pocket the cost savings as profit. Conversely, how many more bikes could MV sell with equal per bike profit were the savings passed on to the buying public? What if they could reduce the price by 15-20% due to cost savings and this resulted in 50% more bikes sold?

None of these savings would necessarily cause a cheapening of MV bikes from a quality stand point. They would only need to gain enough of a discount to make a difference. This is what HD is very good at doing.


We'll see what happens. They may simply treat MV as a separate entity and provide it with absolutely no savings in common sourcing. I kinda doubt it, but it could happen.

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Which means they're straight from Rotax? Btw don't get me wrong,I applaud HD for realizing that they'll never produce a viable sportbike engine in-house and going to someone who could. I just think that the heart and soul of a motorcycle is the engine and if that isn't yours then the bike really isn't either. Basically,you're a "bike assembler",like OCC, at that point in my narrow-minded book.

To be honest,it really doesn't matter to me what happens with this buyout. I'll probably never own a MV,HD or Buell. I'll never be able to justify the price tags of either the MV or HD and Buell's stying has never been to my taste. I keep dreaming that Polaris/Victory will come out with a "American" sportbike or that Moto-Czysz and/or Fischer can somehow produce a viable sportbike for around the same money as the Japanese.

There is less than a 2% part similarity between any Buell model and and HD model. Mostly fasteners. The cams would only transition between pushrod air/oil-cooled engines.

The similarity between the 1125R and the XB line is probably like 10-15% parts similarity with most of those being fasteners, wheels, brake, and body components.

My understanding is that after 2010, the air/oil-cooled XB line will be no more. At that point Buell will have as much to with HD as MV will. MV and Buell will become much more similar. Perimeter brake MV? Dual rotor Brembo Buell? Trellis frame Buell? Fuel in frame MV?

What a cool parts bin it will be between MV and Buell. I can't wait to see what beast comes out of that marriage.

[Amber Lamps]

Ummm...Neither HD nor Buell manufacture the frames for Buell,nor the rims,nor the motors,nor the plastics,nor the brakes,nor the electronic components,etc,etc,etc. I thought you owned a Buell. How can HD's "buying power" of raw materials affect the price of a bike when they outsource most of the components? Your proposal COULD make some sense if,as I said,HD got their existing vendors to start making parts for MVs. What you are failing to understand is that most(if any) of the components aren't made by HD, Buell, or MV but by outside vendors. Heck,the motor that is provided by Rotax for the 1125 is ASSEMBLED by Rotax from components sourced from factories from all over the world. Haven't you ever worked in a factory? No company that sells anything of any complicity produces all of the components in house. If MV buys their pistons from factory "A" and HD buys their pistons from factory "B",HD's "buying power" at factory "B" will have no effect on the price they pay for a piston at factory "A". The only way volume could affect the price of MV's pistons is if HD starts having MV's pistons made at factory "A". Btw don't MVs come with Pirelli tires? Are you suggesting that they start putting Dunlops on them so they can get in on HD's volume discount? I've toured the HD factory years ago,guess what? They don't manufacture much of ANYTHING,they assemble parts from various vendors to produce motorcycles that are "assembled in America". You're talking like blocks of steel,aluminum,plastic,etc go in one side of HD's factory and motorcycles come out the other side!

[pickle.of.doom]

Don't confuse HD and Buell.


HD's do have high tech shit on them, but only if its somewhere the customer won't see it. Things like carbs, brakes, pipes, have to remain 1950's tech or the customer base will start bitching...

[marko138]

Tigger, could you try not writing a book every time you post.

[Amber Lamps]

Originally Posted by marko138

Tigger, could you try not writing a book every time you post.

Yes sir.

[Cutty72]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Btw don't MVs come with Pirelli tires? Are you suggesting that they start putting Dunlops on them so they can get in on HD's volume discount?

Buell's come with Pirelli tires

[marko138]

Originally Posted by Cutty72

Buell's come with Pirelli tires

Sure do.

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by TIGGER

Ummm...Neither HD nor Buell manufacture the frames for Buell,nor the rims,nor the motors,nor the plastics,nor the brakes,nor the electronic components,etc,etc,etc. I thought you owned a Buell. How can HD's "buying power" of raw materials affect the price of a bike when they outsource most of the components? Your proposal COULD make some sense if,as I said,HD got their existing vendors to start making parts for MVs. What you are failing to understand is that most(if any) of the components aren't made by HD, Buell, or MV but by outside vendors. Heck,the motor that is provided by Rotax for the 1125 is ASSEMBLED by Rotax from components sourced from factories from all over the world. Haven't you ever worked in a factory? No company that sells anything of any complicity produces all of the components in house. If MV buys their pistons from factory "A" and HD buys their pistons from factory "B",HD's "buying power" at factory "B" will have no effect on the price they pay for a piston at factory "A". The only way volume could affect the price of MV's pistons is if HD starts having MV's pistons made at factory "A". Btw don't MVs come with Pirelli tires? Are you suggesting that they start putting Dunlops on them so they can get in on HD's volume discount? I've toured the HD factory years ago,guess what? They don't manufacture much of ANYTHING,they assemble parts from various vendors to produce motorcycles that are "assembled in America". You're talking like blocks of steel,aluminum,plastic,etc go in one side of HD's factory and motorcycles come out the other side!

HD and Buell currently contract out with component manufacturers for nearly all of the components for their bikes. The more parts the contract with a manufacturer, frames, plastics, engine castings, rims, etc, the better price break they get per part. MV Augusta doesn't produce EVERY component in house. They do the frames and engines as far as I know. The carbon fiber is probably produced in house, but I'd bet they aren't forging bolts, casting wheels, pouring plastics, or creating electronic components out back. I suspect that the frames will be produced outside as soon as HD can arrange it with their current frame suppliers. Beyond initial R&D, there is no reason not to produce them outside. Mass producing the frames will provide cost savings and volume buying (add 10,000 MV frames to the 500,000 HD frames and a lower per unit price is available). For raw materials, each of these components, engine, frame, plastics, etc., must all come from somewhere. When HD places a large order with a production partner, they in tern go to the open market to find the raw materials they need to produce that part. The larger the order the greater the amount of raw materials that can be ordered at one time. When large quantities are being ordered at a time, volume discounts are given. Think 5 gallon bucket of mayonase at Sam's.

My wife owns a children's clothing line. She produces NOTHING in house. She designs the clothing by creating a prototype. She then designs what the fabric patterns and materials will be. She sends the prototypes and electronic specifications for the fabric to the manufacturer. The manufacturer's minimum order count is 30,000 units. For every 10,000 units ordered over 30,000 there is a volume discount. Why is this? The clothing manufacturer is able to reduce the cost in part because there is less retooling time between sewing jobs. The manufacturer is also able to reduce the cost per unit as a result of the savings provided by suppliers. The manufacturer cuts and sews the garment but doesn't produce the fabrics. The manufacturer receives the fabric from the printer. The printer uses fabric dyes, color fast agents, and softeners. The more of these chemicals the printer can order at the same time, the cheaper per gallon these chemicals are. The larger the clothing order the larger the fabric order the lower the per fabric dying per unit. The fabric printer gets the fabric from the cotton mill. The cotton mill weaves cotton and nylon thread to produce the fabric. The larger the fabric order the more cotton and nylon thread the mill orders at one time. The larger the cotton and nylon thread order the lower the per unit cost of thread and the lower the per unit cost of fabric. The cotton and nylon thread is produced by the thread manufacturer. The thread manufacturer buys raw cotton and synthetic polymers to produce the cotton and nylon thread. The larger the order of cotton and synthetic polymers the lower the per unit price and the lower the thread cost.

Volume discounts are the way companies are able to produce more profit. It's called Economies of Scale. These economies of scale provide for a lower final end unit price. Given supply and demand, the demand for a product increases as the price for a product decreases.

The second the ink was dry on the agreement for HD to take over MV, the procurement department began pouring over the inventory of fasteners, parts, and components for every MV model. Their specific goal is to common source every part possible to provide volume discounts. Similarly, they were eliminating accounting, management, sales, advertising, programming, and executive positions to save costs.

There will be unique parts that MV's have the Buells and HDs don't. I can guarantee, though, that any part that can be sourced from a similar parts supplier will be.


Sorry for the book.

Nearly all motorcycle and automobile manufacturers are "assemblers". Those that aren't are luxury and beyond the reach of most of us.

Even those source parts from everywhere in the world. Why would you not want your manufacturer to source parts from the best suppliers with the highest skills?

If MV didn't produce the engines and frames in house and yet was able to produce a bike of equal or better quality to what is being produced today at 15-25% less price, wouldn't we all win?

The only people who lose are the ones who buy an MV simply BECAUSE it's more expensive. I'm sure we can find them something to spend their money on.